CSA grave marker

[BROBS]

I picked this up from a collector who bought it in an antique shop.

I assume it either broke on its own or was removed for whatever reason.

 

I don't even collect civil war items but this marker spoke to me.

 

I believe it's pre-1920's.. perhaps turn of the century? Anyone know?

It is about an inch thick and cast iron.

 

The craftsmanship of this cross has stood the test of time.

-Brian

 

[BROBS]

DEO VINDICE

[BROBS]

thickness/casting

[smwinter207]

Man, I think removing these things creates bad mojo. Just my two cents.

[BROBS]

it's not a headstone.. it was placed for recognition of their service.

they break off in the ground, no longer able to be used and they have to go somewhere.

 

or are you suggesting that a spirit has attached itself to this piece of iron?

 

-Brian

[smwinter207]

I know you didn't remove it.

[jeff arthur]

Brian,Have you been down to Rock Island Arsenal ? They fly the "Stars and Bars" at the Cemetary there,for the Confederate P.O.W.'s who died there,& were interred, "Deo Vindice" in Latin, means,"Let God be our judge",These Veterans were brave soldiers who stood in defense of their home states, their families,and we Yankees Honor the Service & Sacrifice of these men to this day... Brian,if you can,make the trip down there,You won't regret it...Regards, Jeff

[tarbridge]

There is a law that does not allow the Sales of GAR or CSA grave markers...they can be confiscated. ..I an not sure how strongly it is enforced.

On the other hand...I think there is a "Spirit " presence in the photo. ..

The image of the Spirits shoes were captured.

[BROBS]

found this thread on them from the past:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/92399-confederate-grave-yard-markers/

[Cobra 6 Actual]

Tarbridge, I have the greatest respect for you, sir. And, I don't mean to be contentious, but there is no federal law (if so, please provide a reference citation ... being a retired federal Law Enforcement Officer I often have people claiming that there is a law about this, but they can never produce it.). You are right though, there SHOULD be such a law. There may be individual laws by the various States. Meanwhile, it is, however, good practice not to sell these.

 

The sad reality, though, is that most cemeteries hate these various markers (whether for the GAR, the UCV, or the SAW ... or even law enforcement ones). They regularly rip them out and sell them off for scrap metal.

[BROBS]

The family even could have removed it because of the "evil" flag on it..

there really is no telling.

 

If someone knows of a grave that needs one: I would use a modern version anyways.. this thing obviously has no more stake and would never stand in the ground.

[tarbridge]

My stance...I would not leave one of these markers laying on a trash pile nor put one in the trash.I believe in rescuing and the preservation of our history and artifacts.I have zero problem with BROBS having this marker.I am well aware that things do not always end up as intended and the result...someone has to care and maintain these items.

If anyone enters a cemetery and removes this from a grave ...they are a goul and a thief.

No offense taken Cobra 6 Actual...I Thank you for your service to our great Country. I did think about what I said and felt confident even without the exact law to quote.

There are laws pertaining to theft in all 50 states which would include the unlawful removal of items on Veterans graves.These grave markers are covered under those laws.I cannot give the precise numical number of that law in North Carolina. ..but about 20 years ago...they enacted one making it illegal to sell the markers.

There is a Federal law against the desacration of Veterans graves...any War...so the removal of markers would fit.

 

 

Here is the Son's of Confederate Veterans statement dealing with this...

 

Know the Law

Know your state Laws and statutes pertaining to cemeteries. In almost every state, its a 3rd Degree Felony to posses any artifact from a cemetery.

This pertains to statuary, iron fences, gravestones, marble coping (boarders), coffins, even plants, flowers and trees. Body parts and bodies are under a different chapter and laws are slightly stiffer.

In the past, many Antique shops have had the iron Southern Cross of Honor for sale. Its a no-brainer, the only place these are found is in a cemetery. They are starting to wise up because of public interest and you are the public. Politely call the Police and have them explain how they obtained it. This also pertains to the UCV flag stands. As for the SCV grave marker, they are copy-written and can only be obtained by mem- bers and for cemeteries. Now you are getting into trademark laws.

VA gravestones are Federal property and the laws are even stiffer for possession of stolen Federal property.

This is a double edged sward. If you are transporting a VA gravestone, have your request to the VA for the stone, military records and the shipping slip with you. If you have an SCV grave marker or a Southern Cross of Honor, also make sure you have a receipt for

[smwinter207]

 

A random search pulls up CT penalty numbers. I am guess other states are similar.

 

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2012/rpt/2012-R-0043.htm

Sean

[tarbridge]

I picked this up from a collector who bought it in an antique shop.

I assume it either broke on its own or was removed for whatever reason.

 

I don't even collect civil war items but this marker spoke to me.

 

I believe it's pre-1920's.. perhaps turn of the century? Anyone know?

It is about an inch thick and cast iron.

 

The craftsmanship of this cross has stood the test of time.

-Brian

 

eb9c7bd6860645692597f83909fc47b4.jpg

Brian...Thanks for saving this marker from getting thrown it the trash.Robert

[smwinter207]

 

On a somewhat related note, I'm not sure if anyone saw that Lee H Oswald's grave stone was in a court battle recently. His mother kept the stone in her house so no one would desecrate it. Anyway, she passed and the folks who bought the house were suppose to be the new owner. Here is the story:

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/lee-harvey-oswald-gravestone-quietly-returned-texas-article-1.2323214

[Cobra 6 Actual]

No offense taken Cobra 6 Actual...I Thank you for your service to our great Country. I did think about what I said and felt confident even without the exact law to quote.

There are laws pertaining to theft in all 50 states which would include the unlawful removal of items on Veterans graves.These grave markers are covered under those laws.I cannot give the precise numical number of that law in North Carolina. ..but about 20 years ago...they enacted one making it illegal to sell the markers.

There is a Federal law against the desecration of Veterans graves...any War...so the removal of markers would fit.

Thank you for your comments, Tarbridge. Although there is no federal law specifically regarding stealing or theft of GAR or UCV/CSA grave markers; there is one -- as you noted -- that does address desecrating cemetaries: The Protect Cemeteries Act (H.R. 4028) amends the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998 to include the vandalizing of cemeteries as one of many infringements on the right to freedom of religion. This was signed in 2008.

 

Although it appears to address, in particular, the defacing of religious markers in cemetaries, I think it would also cover the issue we're addressing.

 

In addition, as you also pointed out, there are various individual state laws that address this matter. Thanks for the clarification, sir.

[tarbridge]

It is one of those things that gets lost in the fog.These items get removed when grave stones and markers get updated, so they can be found in garages, barns and sheds.No crime or theft has been committed.Then it comes down to saving them from destruction. I have never seen a law that says you cannot own them.As with a lot of more personal collectibles...it becomes a Catch-22.

[canteenman]

These are called Memorial Grave Markers. Go to any major flag seller on the web and order all you want. They may not be just like this one but have the same purpose. There is nothing illegal about owning one, but if you removed one from a grave that would be just like stealing any other merchandise.

[swmdo]

Problem is there are people who do remove these markers from cemeteries and sell them for scrap or as artifacts. In particular older ones. If people buy them then it creates a market. Sorry but my opinion no matter the source I will never buy them. Hate to see vet graves missing markers. See two story links below:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/15/man-sentenced-for-stealing-454-veterans-grave-markers-sold-them-for-scrap-to/

 

http://wnep.com/2015/06/15/veteran-markers-stolen-from-cemetery/

[doyler]

Problem is there are people who do remove these markers from cemeteries and sell them for scrap or as artifacts. In particular older ones. If people buy them then it creates a market. Sorry but my opinion no matter the source I will never buy them.

I buy anyone I can afford and at least feel its been removed from an uncertain fate.Recently bought half a dozen that were being tossed in a dumpster by an Ameican Legion closing down....they were not "sure" what to do with them.These ranged from WW1 through Vietnam.Some were new never used.Others showed corrosion and damage.Speaking with one of the older members he thought the used ones were brought in after a family got a replacement.When the time presents itself and I see a grave without one Im more than likely to replace the missing one with one I purchased.

 

 

As far as scrapping them these days value is extremely low and risk is not something one thinking correctly will test.If they do try to sell it they get reported.

 

Here any reputable or large scrap yard knows its illegal and will not deal in them or any bronze or copper or steel items from cemeteries.They also require (by law) to take your name and address and also a copy of your ID or Drivers License before payment us recieved.This insures if something is stolen or the police inquire they will have proof where it came from.The yards and employees here can also be held accountable for dealing in stolen property if the dont report it.Thats the way it works state wide here.

[swmdo]

Doyer. Understand from that perspective. Did you check out the last link? Sadly there a people who still do.

 

MAHONING TOWNSHIP — There are a lot of veterans buried at the cemetery next to St. John’s Lutheran Church near Lehighton. At least 20 men buried there fought in the Civil War.

 

Throughout the cemetery, you can find markers honoring veterans.

 

Now, police in Mahoning Township are investigating after at least 30 were stolen.

 

“It’s just the sadness of having our space and the sacred space desecrated, I guess is the word for it. We’re saddened by it,” Rev. Christopher DeForest said.

 

DeForest doesn’t know why the cemetery was targeted. He said flashlights were left behind the day the markers were stolen.

 

Karen Villagomez says it’s upsetting someone stole from veterans’ graves.

 

“I think it would be disrespectful to steal from anybody at anytime. It’s an added symbol of disrespect, no doubt,” Villagomez said.

 

The pastor says it’s not about the monetary value when it comes to replacing markers. It’s about what they mean to families.

 

“To have their markers removed, these medallions, isn’t the money. It’s the heart, it’s the service, it’s the care,” DeForest said.

 

Pastor DeForest hopes what happened here doesn’t happen again.

 

“We all feel the pain of this loss and we all want to work together to make sure it doesn’t happen so that other churches also are more vigilant in watching out so these not expensive but extremely valuable mementos are not damaged or taken away,” DeForest said.

 

The Veterans Affairs office will be working with the cemetery to replace the markers.

 

Anyone who has information on the theft is asking to call Mahoning Township police at 570-386-2241.

[swmdo]

Here is one from May 2015

 

BATAVIA, N.Y. – A 35-year-old man has been sentenced to weekends in jail and must pay restitution to cover the cost of 454 bronze markers and flag-holders he stole from the graves of veterans in western New York.

 

Joseph Kuzma, of Byron, pleaded guilty in March to attempted grand larceny. The Daily News of Batavia reports members of veterans' groups turned out for his sentencing Thursday in Genesee County Court.

 

Prosecutors say Kuzma stole 192 markers and 262 flag-holders from eight cemeteries in the neighboring towns of Bergen and Byron during nighttime thefts last year. He sold the items at a Rochester scrap yard to pay for his drug habit.

 

Kuzma was sentenced to spend weekends in jail for four months and to pay more than $17,000 to replace the stolen items.

[BROBS]

so meth-heads will steal anything?

I know this.

those items were to scrap and made of bronze.

 

this cast iron cross was obviously unserviceable for its purpose with a rusted off/broken stake, and probably replaced.

 

people will steal anything... the same could be said about medals or any other item.

how many medals might have been burglarized from a home, sold to a pawn shop then bought by a collector?

 

What about field gear or US military firearms?

Lots of these items were at one time probably "stolen" from the government (technically).. and now people own them.

 

people just look down on this item because it's from a grave.

and that's fine.. but acting like grave markers are the only items of historic value that have been stolen and resold for profit is simply standing on a soap-box.

[chris3bs]

I would be glad to ship mine to someone if it were needed and I didn't steal it.

[tarbridge]

Sometimes they are stolen and sometimes they were not.We all have to make our decision on saving markers from the trash,scrap heap or the antique store shelf.As time rolls on...I'm sure more will appear. Many from being replaced or from old cemeteries that are going to be relocated...some feel strong about not having anything to do with them...others not as much. There are always opposing sides , ideas and opinions. But we are left with the dilemma of what we can do once removed and the markers are out of their intended place...with no history of the journey.