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U.S. Coast & Geodetic Survey CPO Cap Insignia


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I do now!! :P

 

Thanks!

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What do you guys think of the pattern similarities?

 

Tim

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  • 2 weeks later...

Not sure if you have noticed but when you post Uber Obscure sea service stuff the conversation does stall. Thank you for this primer. I wish someone would post the same for the USSb stuff

 

Actually I was going to ask that this thread get deleted as I do not want my PICs showing up in Google, but now with some real interest...?

 

If you want to start a thread on US Shipping Board devices, I would be interested in participating.

 

Tim

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Wharf,

 

That's a very nice looking WW2 example you show. I suspect, with the Gemsco acid test hallmark, it is probably late war issue, do you know for sure?

 

I have found some more information regarding the above subdued collar. It appears that pattern is a match for the 1917 "commissioned officers" collar devices. I have excerpts of the 1917 uniform regulations but not the full set. As I thought, the collars are reverse design between right and left collars and depending on uniform, also have the "U.S." insignia worn below the anchor.

 

Apparently, the design did change over time as the collar devices changed after WW1. So, that may give me some hope that the example starting this thread is one of the earlier pattern cap devices as the pattern is nearly identical to the collar. Need the whole 1917 regulations though.

 

Tim

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  • 3 weeks later...

The device apparently was used for Petty Officers initially, perhaps similar to the Navy's button style cap insignia for 1st Class Petty Officers.

 

Plates are from the 1920 regulations:

 

Ii wore this device as a Chief Petty Officer in the USC&GS until 1968 the device is the same as navy & coast guard CPO

hat device but with a surveyor,s bench mark as the center. I am looking for a cap or collar devices for my bucket list.

Please if you can help. I do have a ship,s house flag For the USC&GS before it changed to ESSA now NOAA, flag has the same benchmark triangle.

 

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  • 5 months later...

I just scored this one off Ebay. Ironically, I found this thread through an internet search outside of the Forum while researching it. IMO there are too many sub categories for metal insignia on here and things go un-noticed (this did with me).

 

Anyway, based on the rope (not chain and having locking catch - not earlier open catch), I'd guess my example is late 30's/very early WW2 era.

 

Some late thoughts on the insignia that originally started this thread. Having the earlier rope (rather than later chain) with a screwback, doesn't make sense to me. The black hatband backing for chief insignia didn't come along until 1949 at which point, screwback insignia was needed - pin backs didn't work well. And I believe the chain was introduced in 1941. So, I'm thinking the combination of the two shouldn't exist on the same piece of insignia.

 

The fact that the badge that started this thread is associated with The Pasquale Co is interesting to me. Based on some circumstantial evidence that I have observed over the years, I theorize this company was restriking obsolete insignia in the 1950's/60's. Examples are the gold USAAF Flight Surgeon wings, rarer style WW1 US Army officer and enlisted branch insignia, etc. All are high quality. This could also explain the incorrect reversed center device colors on the insignia posted in this thread - they were just cranking out stuff, not closely following regs. I suspect this one may be one more example of one of their restrikes. Just my theory - I can't provide videotape of them being made.

 

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Hi Kurt,

 

Nice score and I've seen a few on Ebay of recent, though some think they are worth more than gold. Can't say I agree with the theory though as it's just too many little parts to bother with making restrikes IMO. Still, I'm not sure either and quit asking about it as no discussion ever developed back when I originally posted it.

 

Here's a recent WW1 EGA that sold on Ebay and note it too has that same type of hardware setup. Browsing some maritime related websites, I see photos of what appear to be early cap insignia and some sites claim screwback attachments were correct but without seeing all the uniform regulations and amendments, I can't say with any certainty. I don't know, never seen another one like it and if they were restrikes, you would see more IMO.

 

Tim

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Just a thought concerning the screw back and the line in place of chain. The old photos on page 1 show the bell style cap in service. The CG 1916 uniforn regs had that same style cap. They mention that the cap insignia will have a screw post fittin to fasten to the front of the cap above the mohair band. It notes that a metal eyelet is required to take the post.

 

May be a clue..

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Hi Dana,

 

Yes, I was also thinking along the lines of the early CG Surfman insignia. I've seen screw mount devices that appear early and of same era as the pin back collar devices even though the uniform regulations state the specs for the cap device were with hinge pin.

 

Ex:

post-50776-0-23385600-1458800536.jpg

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Morning Gents

 

Hope this post OK, have an excerpt from the 1916 CG uniform regs about the warrant officer and petty officer cap insignia. The photos with the screw post sure look of the style of the pre 1920sh pin back for the new style cap.

 

FROM 1916 USCG UNIFORM REGULATIONS

WARRANT OFFICER

BLUE CAP
19. To be of dark navy blue cloth……….The cap device shall be of gilder's metal No. 14 (smooth finish) and shall be attached to the cap by means of a screw post through the eyelet on the front of the cap, and shall consist of two gilt foul anchors, each 1½ inches long, crossed on centers of shanks, with a silver shield, ¾ inch in height, placed upright upon the crossing of the two anchors. (Pl.1,fig 1)

BLUE CAP.
89. Master-at-Arms, No.1 Surfman, Electrician, Electrician First Class, Yeoman, Ship's Writer, Wheelman, Machinist First Class, Carpenter First Class, - To be of dark navy-blue cloth; band of lustrous black mohair braid 1¾ inches wide; visor of black patent leather; bound with same, green underneath, to slope down at an angle of 45° from the horizontal; chin strap of black patent leather one-half inch wide, with two leather slides, fastened at sides within two small-size gilt Coast Guard buttons; two eyelet ventilating holes in each side of the quarters; the crown to be from 1 inch to 1¾ inches greater in diameter than the band and to be stiffened with a nonmetallic grommet. The device shall be of metal, 1½ inches in height, consisting of a silver shield upon a vertical gilt foul anchor, and attached to the cap by a screw post passing through a metal eyelet, as provided for warrant officer's blue cap.

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Morning Gents

 

Hope this post OK, have an excerpt from the 1916 CG uniform regs about the warrant officer and petty officer cap insignia. The photos with the screw post sure look of the style of the pre 1920sh pin back for the new style cap.

 

FROM 1916 USCG UNIFORM REGULATIONS

WARRANT OFFICER

BLUE CAP

19. To be of dark navy blue cloth……….The cap device shall be of gilder's metal No. 14 (smooth finish) and shall be attached to the cap by means of a screw post through the eyelet on the front of the cap, and shall consist of two gilt foul anchors, each 1½ inches long, crossed on centers of shanks, with a silver shield, ¾ inch in height, placed upright upon the crossing of the two anchors. (Pl.1,fig 1)

BLUE CAP.

89. Master-at-Arms, No.1 Surfman, Electrician, Electrician First Class, Yeoman, Ship's Writer, Wheelman, Machinist First Class, Carpenter First Class, - To be of dark navy-blue cloth; band of lustrous black mohair braid 1¾ inches wide; visor of black patent leather; bound with same, green underneath, to slope down at an angle of 45° from the horizontal; chin strap of black patent leather one-half inch wide, with two leather slides, fastened at sides within two small-size gilt Coast Guard buttons; two eyelet ventilating holes in each side of the quarters; the crown to be from 1 inch to 1¾ inches greater in diameter than the band and to be stiffened with a nonmetallic grommet. The device shall be of metal, 1½ inches in height, consisting of a silver shield upon a vertical gilt foul anchor, and attached to the cap by a screw post passing through a metal eyelet, as provided for warrant officer's blue cap.

 

Great info. Thanks for posting. I wonder if anyone has an example of one of these 1916 era CG CPO cap devices that they could post? I've only ever seen pin back.

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I might also add that the filled-in ring at the top of the anchor is not something I see on CPO cap badges (USN, USCG) of the WW2 era and prior.

 

Morning Kurt,

 

Well, what you're looking at is simply solder fill in and not a designed fill-in per se. Obviously you know these early pieces have separately applied rope soldered into place and of the 87+ cap anchors I have in my collection alone, the ones with separately applied pieces all vary slightly from one example to another, even within the same manufacturer. This is true of the Navy and Coast Guard pieces I have as well.

 

The early three-piece designed Navy anchor whose design was shared among various manufacturers clearly have varying degrees of applied solder and the anchor eye varies from wide open to nearly filled in, at least on my examples.

 

Here's a composite of three anchors real quick; you can see this geodetic survey example (top) along with two Coast Guard examples, one I believe from the mid-1920's (center) and one from WW2 (bottom) with chain fouling. They all are filled in completely with solder, so ... it was IMO, variations in manufacturing.

 

Tim

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I think there is still much information out there that needs to be "rediscovered" on this topic, so discussions like this only add to the subject IMO. Very happy to see it!

 

Though these images are not mine and taken off various websites or past Ebay auctions, I thought I would add them here as examples to further the discussion.

 

First, an early USSB CPO cap. Though I cannot positively say what style of attachment this one has, I did find what appears to be a rather detailed illustration of a similar badge elsewhere. I didn't add the coloration, only saturated the existing image. Note the way the rope twists around the anchor eye. Many have claimed this style of wire attachment is wrong but there are period EGA's that use this same style of wire wrapping and are considered legit. I always thought it was odd that is utilized line fouling and was on a screw back type of attachment. Evidently, there were caps/covers designed with a center grommet holes, I just don't know enough about them.

 

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Another period example showing a 1917 - 1933 design USSB cap pin, also a screw back.

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Hi Kurt,

 

Yes, though its really hard to find anything in the actual uniform regulations or specifications that mention screw back attachments for enlisted caps. Almost everything I read states "soldered with hinge style pin". Of course, regulations weren't always followed to the letter and manufacturers seem to have had a lot of artistic license back then. Still, clearly examples exist out there.

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In the other discussion about CG CPO insignia, there is one photo that I think meets this criteria.

 

The photo is from the CG Academy museum, but unfortunately does not show the whole cap. I'd bet though, it is the 1916 through 1920' sh Number 1 Surfman insignia. The 1922 CG uniform regs are among the missing so cannot tell how long that Surfman style uniform continued. Looking at these great photos the style is remarkably similar...

 

The 15 stripes in the CG shield throw a curve ball. The national shield has 13 stripes. Curious

 

FROM 1916 USCG UNIFORM REGULATIONS

OLIVE-DRAB CAP
94. No. 1 Surfman-To be a skeleton cap similar in all respects to the blue cap. The cap cover shall be made of olive-drab cotton cloth of the same quality and color as the olive-drab coat, of the required dimensions to fit the cap frame, and shall conform to the shape of the blue cap, the band being seamed only in the back, lap-seamed on the crown and band, and double turned and stitched at the bottom, having a detachable black mohair braid band and a machine-sewed buttonhole 1/2 inch long on each side in the proper position to receive the chinstrap buttons. There shall be a non-rusting metal eyelet in the center of the front of the cover immediately above the mohair band to receive the screw post of the cap device. The cap device is to be of dull-finish bronze.

Chinstrap to be of russet leather of the same shade as the cap cover, and of the same width and description as that for the blue cap, and to be secured with small-size dull-finish bronze Coast Guard buttons. Two covers required.

 

95. Surfman-Same as for No. 1 Surfman, except that in lieu of the cap device there shall be worn a cap ribbon secured around the band (see article 141-2), and plain, small size russet color buttons shall be used for the chinstrap, which shall be the same as for the No. 1 Surfman. Two covers required.

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Kind of getting back to the topic of Coast & Geodetic Survey here.

 

I wanted to mention that I've seen another example over on Hawspipe's site that shows a screw back Gemsco marked C&GS CPO cap anchor, similar to the one Wharf posted in post #28. Looks near identical except for the mounting hardware. Considering that the Geodetic Survey didn't last long after WW2 and certainly not with enlisted personnel, I would say that particular screw back device is either circa 1947 or, we have another example of caps utilizing screw post attachments earlier than previously thought. With the Gemsco hallmark, I tend to think its probably a later production piece, following the Navy's change to screw backs but that's my opinion.

 

I also mentioned seeing a couple recent Ebay items and think I am safe posting these past auction photos here for discussion. First, a comparison of a full size and mini (garrison cap) size badge.

post-50776-0-80805600-1458950391.jpg

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So, the Gemsco mini example shows that garrison cap devices were manufactured for the C&GS as well and probably, following the Navy's lead, circa 1944 to 1947 or thereabouts when garrison caps came back into use.

 

Typical, somewhat flat looking, Gemsco design for min devices.

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The full size, subdued, anchor was interesting.

 

Considering that the service was normally civilian and wore civie's except during wartime, the fact that the badge is subdued and fouled with line, I would say certainly WW1 era. The construction appears earlier with the open style catch and larger center roundel when comparing disc size to the WW2 examples. Not sure what to make of the black coloration, as I would have expected more olive brown but it may be just the coloration in the seller's pics that make it appear this way. A nice example!

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