WW1 89th Patch on Ebay

[MT247]

Hey All, I was wondering if I could get some opinions on this patch for sale. Real or repro?

 

Thanks

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371409958260?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D371409958260%26_rdc%3D1

 

[Patchcollector]

I've seen them uncut like that before,but I believe they may be "interwar".

[MT247]

I was looking for a 89th patch to put on a WW1 uniform, what would these look like?

[Too Much WW1 Militaria]

Could be WW1, although the 89th held kind of an olympics at the end of the war. Usually, you will see them with the branch color and one or more of the areas inside of the W filled in for best in division, etc. The 89th unit history has one, and it may be online. My vote is good, but post war.

 

John

[MT247]

It looks to me like most of the era SSI patches for the 89th were round, not square.

[Too Much WW1 Militaria]

I've seen them with folded edges, but it seems to be more the exception than the rule.

 

John

[world war I nerd]

I think the 89th Division insignia in question were machine embroidered and issued in Germany just like the 77th Division insignia shown below. The image shows six patches as they came from the factory and a single patch cut from the roll, but not trimmed to shape.

 

Underneath is the uncut pair of ebay 89th Division patches next a similar patch (left) whose backing cloth has been cut into the round shape that was favored by the 89th and sewn onto the shoulder of a service coat.

 

A strip of olive drab woolen material was fed into the machinery which did the embroidery. Rolls of these 'generic' insignia were issued to regimental and company Quartermasters the insignia were cut from the role and issued two per soldier - one for the service coat and one for the overcoat, shoulder patches were not authorized to be worn on flannel shirts.

 

Upon issue, it was usually up to the individual soldiers to trim the excess backing cloth away and to do the sewing himself or have the insignia sewn onto his garments by anyone handy with a needle and thread.

[world war I nerd]

This 89th Division insignia, which is similar to the pair offered by ebay, has been trimmed into a square - not a round shape. On the left, the upper patch is a close up of the insignia on the service coat and the lower patch is one of the two ebay patches.

[world war I nerd]

These three examples of the 89th Division insignia have had their backing cloth cut into three different shapes: square, round and a shield. If not determined by orders, the background shape was likely chosen by the individual soldier or the seamstress or tailor who actually did the sewing. You will also often see all of the backing material trimmed away leaving only the insignia.

 

Each individual unit within the 89th Division could be identified by the different colors inserted into the segments of the divisions 'M & W' monogram. A plain black insignia represents Division HQ, the red and blue segments indicate the 341st MG Battalion.

 

Mass produced insignia, whether machine embroidered of made from cut and sewn felt, were delivered from the factory unadorned without any individual unit colors. In most cases, these would have been applied at either brigade, regimental or company level.

[world war I nerd]

The design of the 89th Division's insignia was selected in July of 1918, while training in France. Since its adoption the design was altered or changed several times. This is thought to be the first pattern of the division's insignia. It is composed of the initials 'M' & 'W' for the 89th Division's nickname ... the Middle West Division, intertwined as if it was a cattle brand.

 

The photo of the Doughboy shows his early and rather large insignia on what appears to be a white background. At upper left is a felt on wool example of the division's early insignia. Beneath that is an illustration that appeared in the Nay 4, 1919 edition of the New York Tribune newspaper which showed all of the AEF's division insignia.

[world war I nerd]

I'm pretty sure, but not positive that this design was the 89th Division's second pattern insignia. Its design was composed of the letter 'M' or 'W' depending on which direction (up or down) the insignia was placed on the service coat. The center example was also shown in the above mentioned New York Tribune newspaper as the letter 'M'.

[world war I nerd]

Two more variations in the 89th Division insignia's design: one with a broken border, which was likely copied from the insignia that were stenciled onto all of the division's transport. The left hand example is hand embroidered and bears the colors of the 341st MG Battalion. The center image is machine woven and of the 'Liberty Loan' type. The blue segment represents the 177th Infantry Brigade. The right hand image is a mass produced and possibly commercially made felt on felt insignia. I don't know what unit the yellow segment represents.

[world war I nerd]

Finally, these three 89th Division shoulder patches all have white segments. The white area represents a specific unit honors awarded during the inter-divisional drill competition held during the spring of 1919 in occupied Germany. The key to what each award or honor represents is in one of the division's history as Too Much WW I Military mentioned in a previous post.

 

The photo shows various segments of the soldier's insignia now white, at an 89th Division awards ceremony conducted sometime in 1919. Underneath, from left to right is an 164th Field Artillery Brigade insignia, one of the ebay patches that began this post - note that someone began to embroider the lower right segment white, but gave up! The right hand insignia is either faded red or possibly orange. If red it also hails from the 164th Field Artillery Brigade; if orange, then it is unknown to me. The letter 'C' likely represents either the company or the battery.

[MT247]

Well i just hit the jackpot of information, thanks ww1 nerd

[svt40]

Two more variations in the 89th Division insignia's design: one with a broken border, which was likely copied from the insignia that were stenciled onto all of the division's transport. The left hand example is hand embroidered and bears the colors of the 341st MG Battalion. The center image is machine woven and of the 'Liberty Loan' type. The blue segment represents the 177th Infantry Brigade. The right hand image is a mass produced and possibly commercially made felt on felt insignia. I don't know what unit the yellow segment represents.

 

The orange center is for signals. However the uniform that particular patch is on has 341st MG insignia including an MG specialty patch below the SSI. So who knows maybe a signalman that was assigned to an MG Company?

 

The center color can be:

Light Blue = 177th Inf.

Dark Blue = 178th Inf.

Orange = Signal

Purple/White = Supply

White = Sanitary train or Medical.

Lt Blue/Red = 341st MG

DK Blue/Red = 342nd MG

Orange/Red = 343rd MG

Red = 164th FA

Blank = HQ Div

 

If you label the four outer parts from L-R starting at the bottom and going counter clockwise:

 

Lower Left = Best Company or Battery in Battalion

Upper Left = Best Battalion in Regiment

Upper Right = Best Regiment in Brigade

Lower Right = Best Brigade in Division.

[MT247]

Thanks for all the info svt40, this will help me a lot.

[world war I nerd]

svt40,

 

Thanks for filling in some of the 89th Division colors I was missing.

 

Do you know the colors for the following:

 

340th MG Battalion

314th Engineer Regiment

314th Ammunition Train

314th Military Police Company

 

Also did the individual infantry & artillery regiments have a color of their own or did they just use the brigade color?

[svt40]

svt40,

 

Thanks for filling in some of the 89th Division colors I was missing.

 

Do you know the colors for the following:

 

340th MG Battalion

314th Engineer Regiment

314th Ammunition Train

314th Military Police Company

 

Also did the individual infantry & artillery regiments have a color of their own or did they just use the brigade color?

 

314th Engineers is red with a white border.

314th Sanitary was white with a red cross.

314th Ammunition train looks to be purple with a white outline (listed as supply)

 

314th MP and 340th MG I have not found anything yet. Hopefully when my 1919 National Geographic gets here it may have that info.

[world war I nerd]

I have red & orange for the 340th MG Battalion, but I can't guarantee that it's correct.

[world war I nerd]

I believe these may be all of the 89th Division SSI colors, except for the color of the 314th MP Company, which is at present unknown.

 

There are also a couple of questions at the end ...

 

From left to right: 89th Division Headquarters, No Color - 177th Infantry Brigade, Light Blue - 178th Infantry Brigade, Dark Blue

 

[world war I nerd]

From left to right: 340th MG Battalion, Red & Orange - 341st MG Battalion, Light Blue & Red - 342nd MG Battalion, Dark Blue & Red

[world war I nerd]

From left to right: 164th Field Artillery Brigade, Red - 314th Engineer Regiment, Red with a White Border - 314th Ammunition Train, Purple with a White Border

[world war I nerd]

From left to right: 314th Sanitary Train, White with a Red Cross - 314th Supply Train, White - 314th Field Signals Battalion, Orange

 

The 314th MP Company is not shown

[world war I nerd]

Does anybody know what the letter 'C' stands for on these 164th Field Artillery Brigade SSI's?

 

I posted that they might be a battery letter, but I have also read that the 'C' stood for a "Colorado regiment of artillery".

[world war I nerd]

Finally, I've seen a couple of purple inserts listed as the 178th Infantry Brigade. Does anybody know if purple was ever substituted for dark blue or vice versa?

 

I've also seen a number of 177th Infantry Brigade shoulder patches with a yellow sunflower in the center. I used to have information on this, but lost it in a hard drive crash. Does anybody know what the sunflower represents?

 

Thanks ...