Phantomf4 Posted August 8, 2015 Share #1 Posted August 8, 2015 Hello all, I'm looking to identify the unit of the 1st Cav these belong to. I have read a few post on these about originality etc. These are made of molten wool and are the same size as a ww2 Cav patch. they have some slight mothing (mainly just the fuzzy part) and smell old. Yeah I sniffed them LOL. Any thoughts or info would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantomf4 Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share #2 Posted August 8, 2015 closeups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantomf4 Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share #3 Posted August 8, 2015 back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantomf4 Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share #4 Posted August 8, 2015 another note is the material is thin and not heavy felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tredhed2 Posted August 8, 2015 Share #5 Posted August 8, 2015 The correct term is melton wool. Both patches are period originals. The one on the left, w/ the light blue bend, is 1st Bde, 1st Regt. The one on the right, w/ the dark blue bend, is a stumper. Some support the idea that it is for a chem unit, within the division. I have not determined what, if any chem unit, was w/ the division in the 20s and/or 30s. Too many units, so little time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tredhed2 Posted August 9, 2015 Share #6 Posted August 9, 2015 You are fortunate to have found those two. Many collectors are leery of collecting 1920s-20 1st Cav Divs because they have been repro'd to death, don't know what period originals are supposed to look like, and most collectors don't know what units they represent. You should carry both of those around with you to compare against future purchases, If those you are in interested in later do not look exactly** like yours walk away. Period original 1st Cav patches were always die cut. **the shape of the horse's heads may vary, but not the materials. ASMIC has catalogs w/ drawings of all the 1st Cav Div patches known to exist, from the 1920s to ? (I'm TDYand don't have access to my catalogs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantomf4 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted August 9, 2015 I appreciate you takin the time for posting here, maybe someday I can return the favor. Thank you sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaiokalewa Posted August 9, 2015 Share #8 Posted August 9, 2015 It must be noted that in the official OQMG documents AG. 421.7 1st Cav. Div. (19-31-21) (misc 1 Div.) CCW AMS 258 4. SSI for the 1st Cavalry Division. There is no distinction for the color blue. It simply states for the First Cavalry Regiment: Blue bend, horse's head scarlet for 1st Brigade, blue for Second Brigade. The example that you have with the "dark" blue bend is an example that was procured out of the PQMD. The depot had followed the official OQMG blueprint specification for the 1st Cavalry Division, 1st Cavalry Regiment, 1st Brigade, to the tee. You have yourself a very scarce example there and they are rarely encountered if at all. The other 1st Regiment example was locally tailored and did not follow the ridgid blue print specifications. It could be reasoned that the dark blue melton wool of the day had poor color retention. Exposure to the harsh conditions of Texas that dark blue would fade to a lighter color. Rather than screw with the inevitable the troopers marched on with the lighter blue variation until 1934. The illusion of the dark blue bend example being for an Chemical element is horse cock. They would had worn the Division Headquarters Troop SSI. What Tredhed had stated is right on the money. These are as real as they get and do use them as training aids when encountering others in the future. Note that them yellow shield do vary in shape, size and construction method. Not all were stamped out with metal dies. I will soon prove this fact in a several future articles in the works for ASMIC's quarterly publication the Trading Post. Until then use these two as iron clad guildlines for future interwar 1st CD SSI acquisitions! Aloha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamarhooten Posted August 9, 2015 Share #9 Posted August 9, 2015 Two fine examples of what we all try to have in our collections! You are a lucky man! Please take lots of photos for future reference and share them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantomf4 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share #10 Posted August 9, 2015 Wow, thanks guys. I suppose these will head for the safe. Funny thing is i don't really collect 1st Cav patches and i had gotten them in with a group of stuff cheap. What do you think the value would be on something like this? This type of patch is out of my league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill K Posted August 10, 2015 Share #11 Posted August 10, 2015 I got my dark blue bend SSI from a 12th Cavalry Regt. Veteran's family. The 12th Replaced the 1st Cavalry Regt. when the latter became part of the 7th Cavalry Brigade(Mechanized)in 1933. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaiokalewa Posted August 10, 2015 Share #12 Posted August 10, 2015 That is correct. The reassignments had occurred on January 3, 1933, for both units. The former 12th Cavalry Regiment veteran made it to the 1st Cavalry Division, 1st Cavalry Brigade, 1st Cavalry Regiment, in time to enjoy wearing their SSI (just like the two examples in Post #) until December 11, 1934. Even though the 1st Cavalry Division was ordered to discontinue wearing the 17 types of 1st Cavalry Division SSI's formal authorized by December 11, 1934, the troops did continue to wear them several years there after the fact. Nice confirmation Bill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaiokalewa Posted August 10, 2015 Share #13 Posted August 10, 2015 To avoid any confusion originally there were 19 authorized variations for the 1st Cavalry Division. Two Machine Gun Squadrons were demobilized in 1928. Keeping in context of the current discussion there were only 17 variations worn by the Troops in 1933. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPage Posted August 14, 2015 Share #14 Posted August 14, 2015 These are made of molten wool and are the same size as a ww2 Cav patch. Were you able to compare them to a WWII patch? I'm asking because all the prewar examples I have, are smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantomf4 Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share #15 Posted August 14, 2015 Yes, they where the same size minus the OD border on the ww2 patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted April 6, 2018 Share #16 Posted April 6, 2018 Thanks for this thread! I have a pano photo of the First Cavalry Regiment taken in the 1920s showing the SSI and was trying to learn more. I ran across this thread and the thread in the reference forum. If you are interested in seeing the wear of this SSI and the DUIs, please go to: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/308231-between-the-wars-1st-cavalry-regiment/?p=2477759 If you have additional details or information on the photo, please feel fr4ee to add them into my thread. Here is an example of the detail in the photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tredhed2 Posted April 6, 2018 Share #17 Posted April 6, 2018 They really are great patches to collect; most 1st Cav Div vets have no idea how colorful their patches used to be. There are plenty of black bend, black horse patches on melton wool to be found. As indicated, once you find one of those, carry it around for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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