garrettbragg12 Posted July 20, 2015 Share #1 Posted July 20, 2015 I have recently inherited from a Great Aunt what I've learned is a Prussian M1809. I've been told since I was old enough to hold it that its been in our family since the civil war, in which part of our family, the Mackeys, fought with the confederacy. But as a collector I also know take those stories with a grain of salt. I've learned that they were once flint rifles and then converted to percussion, and is .71 caliber. Mine bears marks from its time with the 15th Landwher Regiment. One thing that was pointed out and I'd like to learn more about, is the "CSA" cartouche, which I've been told is most likely faked. Id like to get your thoughts on the stamp! Please excuse the cell phone pictures, as it's all I had at the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundance Posted July 20, 2015 Share #2 Posted July 20, 2015 I hope you can put up some more pictures as it appears to be a beauty. The "CSA" doesn't seem to have a Civil War era look but why would someone stamp "CSA" on it anyway? Hopefully others will have better answers for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aznation Posted July 20, 2015 Share #3 Posted July 20, 2015 Found the following: The Union purchased a total of 165,073 obsolete muskets from Prussia, mostly the converted M1809 with a few M1839 muskets and M1839/55. The vast majority purchased were smoothbore but 22,250 were rifled, mostly rifled M1809 muskets like yours. Prussian muskets were the first foreign purchased arms getting to the Union forces, starting in August of 1861 and were sorely needed to arm new Yankee regiments. While heavier than the French-styled American arms, the were considered substantial and effective in the early war period, they were very well made. Interestingly, there are no records here or in Germany of purchase of any Prussian muskets by the South, their first successful purchase of foreign arms was the coup of an early lock on British P53 Enfield rifled muskets. As a matter of fact, Union purchasing agents were comparatively unsuccessful in Europe. They received largely 3rd and 4th Class European muskets for their money, but their manufacturing caught up by early 1863 and the Prussian muskets ended the War in storage or training and were quickly surplussed in the post war period. Those of the Prussian muskets that saw Confederate service, and there were a few, were from battlefield captures. Makers can be Potsdam, Saarn, Neisse, Suhl or DresdenOoops, forgot to add that the above information came from "Firearms From Europe: A History of Firearms Imported During The American Civil War By The United States and Confederate States of America." Also see this link: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?404441-Family-heirloom-confederate-black-powder!&p=3399905 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve B. Posted July 21, 2015 Share #4 Posted July 21, 2015 I have one, too. Mine is missing the rear sight and bayonet. The person who sold it to me said he got it from the movie studio auction back in the 70s or 80s. All my research indicates that the Union bought and used these as aznation reports above. Could have been captured by your ancestor, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc3439 Posted July 21, 2015 Share #5 Posted July 21, 2015 That is a beautiful old rifle. I would like to own something that old and with so much history behind it. I am sure it occupies a special place in your collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettbragg12 Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share #6 Posted July 25, 2015 I hope you can put up some more pictures as it appears to be a beauty. The "CSA" doesn't seem to have a Civil War era look but why would someone stamp "CSA" on it anyway? Hopefully others will have better answers for you. Oh trust me I'll have plenty of camera quality pics. she won't physically join my collection until the will clears in 2 weeks. I had the same thoughts on the stamp as well. Assuming the gun has been in the family like reported, I guess we have a bubba somewhere in the lines! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettbragg12 Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted July 25, 2015 Found the following: The Union purchased a total of 165,073 obsolete muskets from Prussia, mostly the converted M1809 with a few M1839 muskets and M1839/55. The vast majority purchased were smoothbore but 22,250 were rifled, mostly rifled M1809 muskets like yours. Prussian muskets were the first foreign purchased arms getting to the Union forces, starting in August of 1861 and were sorely needed to arm new Yankee regiments. While heavier than the French-styled American arms, the were considered substantial and effective in the early war period, they were very well made. Interestingly, there are no records here or in Germany of purchase of any Prussian muskets by the South, their first successful purchase of foreign arms was the coup of an early lock on British P53 Enfield rifled muskets. As a matter of fact, Union purchasing agents were comparatively unsuccessful in Europe. They received largely 3rd and 4th Class European muskets for their money, but their manufacturing caught up by early 1863 and the Prussian muskets ended the War in storage or training and were quickly surplussed in the post war period. Those of the Prussian muskets that saw Confederate service, and there were a few, were from battlefield captures. Makers can be Potsdam, Saarn, Neisse, Suhl or Dresden Ooops, forgot to add that the above information came from "Firearms From Europe: A History of Firearms Imported During The American Civil War By The United States and Confederate States of America." Also see this link: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?404441-Family-heirloom-confederate-black-powder!&p=3399905 Thanks for that piece of history! How does one determine the maker of these guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettbragg12 Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share #8 Posted July 25, 2015 I have one, too. Mine is missing the rear sight and bayonet. The person who sold it to me said he got it from the movie studio auction back in the 70s or 80s. All my research indicates that the Union bought and used these as aznation reports above. Could have been captured by your ancestor, I suppose. Funny you mention that, as there is a name lightly scratched into the plate, but I couldn't get it to photograph well. I hate to doubt family, but as a WWII collector I know all too well that "this gun was like the one my father used in the war" can easily turn into "this IS the gun my father used in the war." But it'd be cool to think it was captured from the union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettbragg12 Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share #9 Posted July 25, 2015 That is a beautiful old rifle. I would like to own something that old and with so much history behind it. I am sure it occupies a special place in your collection. Thank you for the compliments! I am very happy to have been handed down this rifle, as family firearms will always mean more to me than my most valuable purchased firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garandomatic Posted July 25, 2015 Share #10 Posted July 25, 2015 Pretty cool either way. I have an m1809 bayonet that my grandpa found in a barn here on the farm many years ago, rusted to pieces. I think they're have been battlefield relics in better shape. I always wondered if one of my two relatives that fought for the Union carried it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettbragg12 Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share #11 Posted August 17, 2015 Pretty cool either way. I have an m1809 bayonet that my grandpa found in a barn here on the farm many years ago, rusted to pieces. I think they're have been battlefield relics in better shape. I always wondered if one of my two relatives that fought for the Union carried it. You should post pictures! I'd love to see it! It's the history that makes things like that so special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettbragg12 Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share #12 Posted August 17, 2015 Well, the rifle is finally in my hands and home. Noticed a few markings I hadn't seen before. Guess the next step is to learn how to fire her, gather supplies, and get her into shooting condition! Any advice is appreciated! Thanks to all who have commented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garandomatic Posted August 17, 2015 Share #13 Posted August 17, 2015 You should post pictures! I'd love to see it! It's the history that makes things like that so special. I'll do that. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundance Posted August 18, 2015 Share #14 Posted August 18, 2015 I may be mistaken, but isn't the general consensus that you shouldn't risk damaging yourself or that beautiful rifle by firing it? If you do I'd love to see it (but be safe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron norman Posted August 20, 2015 Share #15 Posted August 20, 2015 I have collected the Civil War for over 60 years and can suggest the following: 1. Do not try to fire the rifle, unless you use very low loads of BLACK POWDER. While it may be fun there are too many dangers involved with metal that age. 2. A very large percent of the rifles/weapons that were carried by the confederates were captured because there was such a shortage on the southern side that any weapon was better than none or a pitchfork etc. 3. If marked, usually marked " C S " not CSA and usually carved in or stamped in with a die mark from an armorer. ( suggest that it was done by a family member years ago ) because of confederate service in the family. Ron Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted August 21, 2015 Share #16 Posted August 21, 2015 The stamping sure looks like a modern font, rather than a Civil War era type. This rifle may have Civil War provenance, but it was likely "enhanced" by the later marking by someone who may have tried to physically evidence the story associated with it. I would research font history to date the marking on it. There's actually a historical chronology to it... David Albert [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettbragg12 Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share #17 Posted August 22, 2015 I have collected the Civil War for over 60 years and can suggest the following: 1. Do not try to fire the rifle, unless you use very low loads of BLACK POWDER. While it may be fun there are too many dangers involved with metal that age. 2. A very large percent of the rifles/weapons that were carried by the confederates were captured because there was such a shortage on the southern side that any weapon was better than none or a pitchfork etc. 3. If marked, usually marked " C S " not CSA and usually carved in or stamped in with a die mark from an armorer. ( suggest that it was done by a family member years ago ) because of confederate service in the family. Ron Norman Duely noted! Guess she'll make a pretty wall hanger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettbragg12 Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share #18 Posted August 22, 2015 The stamping sure looks like a modern font, rather than a Civil War era type. This rifle may have Civil War provenance, but it was likely "enhanced" by the later marking by someone who may have tried to physically evidence the story associated with it. I would research font history to date the marking on it. There's actually a historical chronology to it... David Albert [email protected] I didn't even think of researching the font. I pretty much knew from the gecko to take the story for what it was worth. But I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask! Thanks for the input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettbragg12 Posted August 22, 2015 Author Share #19 Posted August 22, 2015 Basic question but... How does one remove the bayonet? It's on there pretty good and I don't wanna break anything because I was doing it wrong. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron norman Posted August 22, 2015 Share #20 Posted August 22, 2015 I can not tell for sure, but it does not appear to have a front sight. So it should be removed the following way: Spray WD 40 or a good lubricant in and around the bayonet and the barrel. Let work for a few minutes. Take a piece of wood and place it against the elbow of the bayonet and start tapping. That should loosen it and can be removed. You won't hurt the gun or the bayonet if you are reasonable. If there is a slot in the bayonet base you may need to rotate it to slide the slot over the sight. If you would send me pictures of the bayonet and barrel from all four sides, I would give you better directions. Send to : [email protected]. Ron Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve B. Posted August 22, 2015 Share #21 Posted August 22, 2015 That is probably not the correct bayonet for that musket. IIRC the 1809 Prussian used a plug bayonet, but will have to go look for the reference. The front sight is integral to the brass piece shown at the left in the photo, but is out of frame to the left. If you happen to have access to a copy of "Arms & Equipment of the Union" by Time-Life Books, you can see a nice color side view of an 1809 Prussian on pages 34 & 35. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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