OBON 2015: Return of Japanese Flags

[DoubleEnvelopment]

Myself and another collector friend have two separate flags named to two separate individuals with the same name : Taro Yoshida. How would they determine which Yoshida family to give it to? I wonder if a bunch of these flags even get returned to the right families? To the John Smith's of Japan...

 

And at what expense should we sacrifice our own history to help another... one of the largest mass murdering groups in history? If it was infact an honor to die for the Emporer the Japanese must have had some inkling these would be captured. Spoils of war have been collected since the dawn of time.

[Rakkasan187]

image.jpg

 

 

I love this picture...

 

You see the far crate on the left side at the very far end of the warehouse....the one on the very bottom??

 

Yup, my VA claim file is under that somewhere....

 

Leigh

[Wharfmaster]

I am the Son, Nephew, Cousin and friend of numerous Pacific War vets. I know the real story.

 

None of my meatball flags will be going anywhere. They are a tangible symbol of American Victory.

 

 

W

[Bob Hudson]

Myself and another collector friend have two separate flags named to two separate individuals with the same name : Taro Yoshida. How would they determine which Yoshida family to give it to? I wonder if a bunch of these flags even get returned to the right families? To the John Smith's of Japan...

 

And at what expense should we sacrifice our own history to help another... one of the largest mass murdering groups in history? If it was infact an honor to die for the Emporer the Japanese must have had some inkling these would be captured. Spoils of war have been collected since the dawn of time.

 

As someone who does a lot of research on GI's and family genealogy, I can't even imagine how hard it would be to take a lot of 70+ year old flags (almost all from KIA soldiers) and try to find modern day descendants who want them. Maybe Japan has a better system for keeping track of everyone, but consider that a huge amount of those WWII soldiers had no children and thus no direct descendants, so you have to go looking for great nephews and nieces at best. Maybe someone who knows contemporary Japanese culture has some idea as to whether modern day Japanese even want such war relics?

[ViewfinderGyrene]

 

As someone who does a lot of research on GI's and family genealogy, I can't even imagine how hard it would be to take a lot of 70+ year old flags (almost all from KIA soldiers) and try to find modern day descendants who want them. Maybe Japan has a better system for keeping track of everyone, but consider that a huge amount of those WWII soldiers had no children and thus no direct descendants, so you have to go looking for great nephews and nieces at best. Maybe someone who knows contemporary Japanese culture has some idea as to whether modern day Japanese even want such war relics?

 

Just on sheer observation in the news, the country seems split between outright ignoring the past, and almost trying to keep it alive.

 

You have the government that does the "sweeping under the carpet", while you have the last Zero pilot touring and warning about future generations in Japan again falling into "rabid nationalism".

 

I align with those who say "they were trophies of a defeated enemy, why send them back?". I'm all for healing wounds, but they had as much of that rabid nationalism at that time as Germany did. If you redistribute the meatball flags you are in effect encouraging the remembrance of the regime those men fought under...It's not like the mop-up of Germany where the Heer was spent and sick of fighting, the imperial forces fought to the death, only stopping when the emporor stopped for them...

 

I heard about the first flag captured in the Guadalcanal Campaign being sent back, taken from a bunker on Gavutu 8/7/1942. IMHO that belongs in a museum or educational exhibit/private collection, still saddens me. Once more, it was gifted to the gov't of the Solomon Islands by the vet, and they returned it to Japan...

 

Just some thoughts as far as the future is concerned...

[cutiger83]

And we killed just as many as them, so you think about.

 

It is now history, and if some feel they would like to return a item to a former enemies family then they have the right to.

 

Do not bring politics into this thread. One and only warning.

 

Politics are starting to creep back into this thread....

 

[Garandomatic]

You bring up an interesting point comparing them to the Nazis. Now, it is obviously illegal to have the swastika in Germany, but even if it wasn't, sending back a Nazi flag would have a very different feeling to a lot of folks. I doubt we'd see folks lining up to return those.

[cutiger83]

 

The kind of flag they hope to return is the individual Japanese soldier's "hinomaru yosegaki" "good luck" flag which was signed by friends and family and carried, folded up, in battle.

These flags might have the soldier's name and hometown written on them amidst all of the best wishes from family and friends:

 

 

Since the flag would have family member names and hometown, wouldn't that make it easier to find the relatives?

[Garandomatic]

 

Politics are starting to creep back into this thread....

 

Where? Mentioning modern day Japan? The modern ambiguity about their past is well documented.

[vintageproductions]

Since we have so many experts on modern Japan, can any of you tell me how the modern Japanese society "sweeps their past under the rug"?

 

The Politicians, probably, but they aren't doing anything our own politicians aren't doing on a daily basis.

 

When I first started traveling to Japan, very few people actually knew their own history, but they could tell me more about US history and lifestyles from 1946 on, then any US citizen I know. Today, the younger Japanese citizens want to know / learn about their history. I for one think this a great thing.

 

I would go to the militaria shows there, and just like shows here, some of the people would dress up. When I first went the majority would be dressed in US and German uniforms with maybe one or two collectors wearing Japanese uniforms. Now it is completely reversed, you will see many wearing their own home countries uniforms.

 

When I first started setting up at these shows I really never knew what type of merchandise to bring. After a couple of trips I started asking some of the guys I saw regularly there what they would like to see me bring. I remember one guy saying he would like to see GHQ items. I got a puzzled look on my face and asked why GHQ pieces, as I thought that may have been a sore subject in Japan. The collector looked me in the eye and said what a great person / human MacArthur was to the Japanese people. He went on to say that MacArthur could have been like Ike and destroyed the Japanese people but instead he told the soldiers to turn in their guns, swords, and if anyone had a Order Of The Golden Kite medal to turn it in also,otherwise go home, go to your families, start fresh and lets move forward. He then said that MacArthur is who made Japan what it is today. Every time I go to Japan I think of that statement.

 

Also the Japanese National flag shows a sun, not a meatball. This term is very derogatory and is as bad as using 40's slang to describes someones race or nationality.

 

So to still blame the Japanese people for everything that went wrong a couple of generations ago is ridiculous, or to blame the people for what the Government did is even more ridiculous. If that is the case you may as well blame the US for all slavery in the free world. You can also blame the British for being to controlling and fighting us when the US decided it wanted it's independence. I mean I never hear anyone complain in today's society about how the British treated us as a colony in the 1700's..

 

History is just that, history.

[ViewfinderGyrene]

Since we have so many experts on modern Japan, can any of you tell me how the modern Japanese society "sweeps their past under the rug"?

 

The Politicians, probably, but they aren't doing anything our own politicians aren't doing on a daily basis.

 

When I first started traveling to Japan, very few people actually knew their own history, but they could tell me more about US history and lifestyles from 1946 on, then any US citizen I know. Today, the younger Japanese citizens want to know / learn about their history. I for one think this a great thing.

 

I would go to the militaria shows there, and just like shows here, some of the people would dress up. When I first went the majority would be dressed in US and German uniforms with maybe one or two collectors wearing Japanese uniforms. Now it is completely reversed, you will see many wearing their own home countries uniforms.

 

When I first started setting up at these shows I really never knew what type of merchandise to bring. After a couple of trips I started asking some of the guys I saw regularly there what they would like to see me bring. I remember one guy saying he would like to see GHQ items. I got a puzzled look on my face and asked why GHQ pieces, as I thought that may have been a sore subject in Japan. The collector looked me in the eye and said what a great person / human MacArthur was to the Japanese people. He went on to say that MacArthur could have been like Ike and destroyed the Japanese people but instead he told the soldiers to turn in their guns, swords, and if anyone had a Order Of The Golden Kite medal to turn it in also,otherwise go home, go to your families, start fresh and lets move forward. He then said that MacArthur is who made Japan what it is today. Every time I go to Japan I think of that statement.

 

Also the Japanese National flag shows a sun, not a meatball. This term is very derogatory and is as bad as using 40's slang to describes someones race or nationality.

 

So to still blame the Japanese people for everything that went wrong a couple of generations ago is ridiculous, or to blame the people for what the Government did is even more ridiculous. If that is the case you may as well blame the US for all slavery in the free world. You can also blame the British for being to controlling and fighting us when the US decided it wanted it's independence. I mean I never hear anyone complain in today's society about how the British treated us as a colony in the 1700's..

 

History is just that, history.

 

 

I certainly didn't make a blanket statement blaming the entire people. Anyone with presence of mind can see that Japan is now a wonderful country with wonderful people.

 

I would gladly provide evidence of this, but it's too far off topic per the moderator at the beginning of the thread. One such instance was presented on the "Greatest Generations Foundation" Facebook page over the anniversary of the firebombing campaigns...still another in the NY Times along the same lines...

 

My point was, why remember that time in their history in a positive light? We in the US remember slavery and segregation, but not in a positive way.

 

I would not refer to a modern-day Japanese flag as a meatball, but since those that were taken from the PTO were produced during that time of totalitarian rule, why would I have respect for that? I don't have respect for Reich relics or the portions of that generation that condoned that regime either, and never will.

 

If history is history why remember it at all?

[Garandomatic]

I don't intend anything I am saying here to be contentious, especially to vintageproductions. If you've been there, you know more about the place than I probably do, and I'll tip my hat to that.

 

As for sweeping under the rug, the things that are on top of my mind include their PM's denial of "comfort women" and a general school curriculum which heavily whitewashes and avoids the war crimes. There's more sources out there for that issue. I am very curious as to what their curriculum actually includes. I think much is made of textbook controversies over the years, but we have our own as well, I suppose. As late as 2007, Okinawans protested the downplaying of Japan's role in the forced suicide of Okinawans. I read a statistic, but have no idea where or how accurate, that stated some fantastic figure of 50% or so of Japanese high school seniors did not know that there had been a WWII, or that they had fought the US.

 

Let me ask you this, and I sincerely am interested in your impression, how knowledgeable do you think they are about Unit 731, the "comfort women" issue, cannibalism, and things like that?

 

If they are ignorant about some pretty evil stuff, I am a bit troubled about them putting on their own WWII uniforms for the deeds that were done in them 70 years ago.

 

Awesome quote about MacArthur, though. I have never been a big fan of his, but I always take the time when I'm teaching the rebuilding of Japan to mention the things that were done because of him. I dunno, man, I try to make sure I hold nothing against anyone today. There are so many amazing cultural points before and after WWII about Japan I can't help but love a lot about the place.

[vintageproductions]

Since I am the moderator at the beginning of the thread, I will answer this.

 

It is History that we are talking about not politics, even though some don't understand that and want to keep bringing past politics into this conversation.

 

You say the Japanese flag is different now then it was during WWII, that is an odd statement. The US National flag is still the same flag ( except for additions to the star field) as it was during the Civil War, The Indian Wars, etc, but yet the US did some rather nasty things then. So do we condemn our flag for just those short periods when we study US history? It is still the national flag, Like the Japanese National flag is still their basic flag. It is not the Rising Sun flag, which is their wartime flag.

 

Something that rubs me the wrong way every time I read it is the Greatest Generation this or that. That name is about as disrespectful as any slang name every used to describe people. Granted the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, home front workers, etc. all did what had to be done. The good, the bad and the ugly, and they protected our way of life. But what makes them any better the the men and women who fought during the Civil War, Indian Wars, Spanish American War, WWI, Korea, Vietnam, or the extensive war we are now and have been fighting for many years. The term "Greatest Generation" is a slap in the face to all other American forces that have fought and defend our country, past, present and future. There are many Servicemen and women that have put in more time whether in Afghanistan or Iraq, then their equals did during all of WWII, and this is now an all volunteer military there is no draft like we had in WWII. It is wonderful to show respect to our past servicemen and women but they are no greater then any other person who has answered the call to defend this great country.

[thefallenbuddha]

I totally agree with what Bob wrote as being similar to experiences I have had in Japan.

 

I think this thread will be better served if we stick to discussing the items in question and avoid politics, like Bob has said.

 

To get back to flags, and responding to the question about whether soldier's descendants would have interest in these,

I think families here are just like those in the US or anywhere else. Some people are interested in their family history, some aren't, and in other cases there no longer are any family members around to speak of.

 

To reply to Cutiger83, again, the problem is most of these flags don't have much specific information to go on. There also is no "ancestry.com" or other easy go-to reference for tracking down genealogies in Japan. Japanese privacy laws are very strict, and most of the types of records that would be public in the US, are not in Japan. What's more, a lot of records for most "regular" people from pre-1946 are often non-existent, or virtually impossible to track down. For WW2 service records, most consulted are from the post-war period based on those who were/are receiving pensions, but even in those cases specific details about military service are often absent in the official files - which wouldn't be available to the public readily anyway.

 

Also, nearly every Japanese soldier had one of these flags or a similar item (or more than one) in his possession, and the majority of Japanese soldiers did not die in the war. The practice of making these flags also pre-dates WW2, and a portion of those around today were from soldiers who didn't see service during the 1940s.

As we all know, these flags were hugely popular as souvenirs by Allied personnel. And, I would argue, most - if not the vast majority - that veterans brought back were acquired postwar in Japan or in former Japanese controlled territories post-surrender. Much less, the many other flags that have crossed the ocean in the intervening years by collectors.

 

As I wrote before, these flags are still commonly sold, bought, collected, and faked (yes - faked) in Japan. A visit to any of the local shows that come my way here - no matter how big or small - invariably have at least one person selling such a flag.

 

The bottom line I am trying to argue is there are thousands of these original flags around today, most are not from soldiers killed on a battlefield, and nearly all are impossible to accurately track down to living descendants.

[ViewfinderGyrene]

Since I am the moderator at the beginning of the thread, I will answer this.

 

It is History that we are talking about not politics, even though some don't understand that and want to keep bringing past politics into this conversation.

 

You say the Japanese flag is different now then it was during WWII, that is an odd statement. The US National flag is still the same flag ( except for additions to the star field) as it was during the Civil War, The Indian Wars, etc, but yet the US did some rather nasty things then. So do we condemn our flag for just those short periods when we study US history? It is still the national flag, Like the Japanese National flag is still their basic flag. It is not the Rising Sun flag, which is their wartime flag.

 

Something that rubs me the wrong way every time I read it is the Greatest Generation this or that. That name is about as disrespectful as any slang name every used to describe people. Granted the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, home front workers, etc. all did what had to be done. The good, the bad and the ugly, and they protected our way of life. But what makes them any better the the men and women who fought during the Civil War, Indian Wars, Spanish American War, WWI, Korea, Vietnam, or the extensive war we are now and have been fighting for many years. The term "Greatest Generation" is a slap in the face to all other American forces that have fought and defend our country, past, present and future. There are many Servicemen and women that have put in more time whether in Afghanistan or Iraq, then their equals did during all of WWII, and this is now an all volunteer military there is no draft like we had in WWII. It is wonderful to show respect to our past servicemen and women but they are no greater then any other person who has answered the call to defend this great country.

 

I suppose then it will be one of those times to agree to disagree. Most amusing that whenver another country is criticised the counter-point always involves our own country...

 

The point of it all is owning up to/acknowledging that unpleasent past. Many countries including the US do, and others seem and appear to want to ignore it.

 

Much of history is in fact political history.

[vintageproductions]

 

Let me ask you this, and I sincerely am interested in your impression, how knowledgeable do you think they are about Unit 731, the "comfort women" issue, cannibalism, and things like that?

 

If they are ignorant about some pretty evil stuff, I am a bit troubled about them putting on their own WWII uniforms for the deeds that were done in them 70 years ago.

 

 

 

I am by no means saying that the Japanese didn't do some horrible things during the war. But, so did all the countries involved, no one can raise their hands and say they were perfect and never did anything wrong.

 

The comfort Women issue is something that is still a very sore subject. Did it happen? Yes, but are the Japanese of today to blame? No it was their fathers and grandfathers. So if they say they are sorry today, what does that mean, except for a hollow apology of something another generation did.

 

The cannibalism is a very small unit that this happened in, it was not a wide spread practice. Same thing with the gas / chemical units in China. These are a couple incidents that the whole country is not responsible for and the ones in charge should be or should have been held responsible.

 

We can point the fingers right back at ourselves. Is every American to blame for slavery? Or was it a very small portion of the population. What about the internment camps for Japanese, German and Italian born US citizens? Was any of this the right thing to do? No it wasn't, but it was still done. How about how the US traded back to Germany and Japan, US born citizens because of their family nationality, in exchange for US prisoners. Some of these tradees were US born citizens who grew up here and went to school here and had never been outside of the US, but for some reason our Government decided "Lets get rid of them because of their nationality". Was this right? No it wasn't, but it happened and is now part of our history. Doesn't make it right or wrong, but it is History and should be treated as such.

[Garandomatic]

Thanks for that, Bob, good points. I didn't mean to infer that some random Tokyo citizen walking down the street bears responsibility. I have just seen and read a lot of things about a pretty widespread unawareness about such things and just wanted to hear from someone that's been there and knows something about the history enthusiasts there, and possibly what the average citizen knows.

[cutiger83]

How many of you who keep trying to discuss what Japan did during the war drive a Toyota or Honda? How many of you watch a Sony TV or DVD player? We were at war with Germany. How many of you drive a Volkswagen, Audi, BMW, Porsche? We were once at war with Korea. Now Hyundai is one of the top selling cars in America. We were once at war with Vietnam. We are now outsourcing to Vietnam.

 

Rather than argue about something that happened 70 years ago or chest bump about winning a war 70 years ago that was won by out-producing every other country, why not focus on fixing our own country?

 

The past is something that we need to learn from so we can change the future. Other countries have changed and are now kicking our butts. No longer is “buy American” the phrase heard around our country. Our companies are now hiring people overseas rather than Americans.

 

Stop living in the past and start looking for the future. Learn from the past and fix our country's future.

[vintageproductions]

Darwin also nailed it right on the head.

 

You can't go to a antique show, militaria show, flea market, etc. without finding signed flags. Same with 1000 stitch belts, vests, hats, Go To Front banners, etc. These were all made and given to each soldier to went off to war. Most of the veterans also brought these home and that explains why there are so many available.

 

Also like he stated there are many fakes abound of these items.

[cutiger83]

 

To reply to Cutiger83, again, the problem is most of these flags don't have much specific information to go on. There also is no "ancestry.com" or other easy go-to reference for tracking down genealogies in Japan. Japanese privacy laws are very strict, and most of the types of records that would be public in the US, are not in Japan. What's more, a lot of records for most "regular" people from pre-1946 are often non-existent, or virtually impossible to track down. For WW2 service records, most consulted are from the post-war period based on those who were/are receiving pensions, but even in those cases specific details about military service are often absent in the official files - which wouldn't be available to the public readily anyway.

 

 

Thank you for the explanation.....Kat

[Wharfmaster]

After 70 years, I would guess it could be difficult to find close family members in nearly any nation, not just Japan.

 

I like the Japanese people, admire their culture and Love my Honda. World War Two is a separate matter.

 

Concerning "The Greatest Generation" I am in total agreement with vintageproductions, best paragraph I have ever read on the subject.

 

 

Wharf

[ScottG]

I am o.k. with the term "Greatest Generation" and there are several reasons. It is a group of people born between roughly 1918-1926. Many were born into one of the largest pandemics the world has ever seen. They grew up in the roaring twenties with crazy laws and total uncertainty in the direction of their government. Then the worlds worst economic disaster forcing many to leave school for work in programs like the WPA, TVA, CCC or in the case of my Grandfather, sharecropping out of 8th grade to the CCC to the army prior to the war. Then staying in for the "duration" which is easy to look back on but certainly very uncertain at the time.

The news of events was slower, in essence the world was a much larger place and no one knew when or if they would ever see home again. Then they returned at wars end. They went to work, raised families, built an industrial and technological empire the likes of which have never been seen. While the majority did this, the career military built a new Germany, Italy and Japan, and those nations thrive today because of it. Were there issues? For sure, were there criminals, thugs, scum, etc? You bet. But the majority is what counts.

Now I am one of those who served in Desert Storm, OIF and many other places. I knew my deployment time. I grew up in safety and had security because of the life my parents had and because their parents, ie: my Grandfather's, wouldn't have them or me leave school for work, and because of their experience, they helped to design, build, and legislate a better society. Notice I did not say perfect, just better.

I have been to hot nasty places like my Grandfather, I have seen miserable death firsthand like my Grandfather, I returned to a country I loved like my Grandfather. The difference in my mind is that prior to leaving he along with my Father prepared me for the experience, both good and bad. He never got that from his Father. He never knew how long he would be gone, I did. He didn't know what a New Guinea was at age 22, I knew in grade school. Because of his 8th grade education, the G.I. Bill didn't really mean a lot to him, it got me a masters degree. He had malaria and a host of other issues including ptsd that affected his life, but he never received a dime from the VA. I received 100% rating without even asking.

I could go on, but it is way off topic. This is why these guys as a majority, are in my opinion, "The Greatest Generation." To sit back in a position of privilege ( which is what we do when looking back) and point out their faults is easy. To walk a mile in their shoes, as few of us have attempted to do, still doesn't add up. I volunteered for the army and served 23 years and I personally don't feel that my sacrifice is on par with my Grandfather's. I am proud of my service and of those I served with, but I just don't think I suffered the hardships that most of that generation did. I also feel that my country isn't as unified as it was when these guys were in their prime.

To stay within the topic, I would echo what many have said. I might personally decide to return a flag, but I wouldn't send it to a third party. If I did find the family, they would have to be pretty excited or emotional to get the flag. Just my opinion.

Scott.

[Owen]

The japanese can have mine back in exchange for some of the painted A-2 jackets that wealthy

collectors from japan bought up over here in the 90s whem their economy was booming. They

paid crazy prices for our history and drove small guy collectors like me out of the hobby as I

could no longer compete. Bring 'em on, I'll be happy to to see their heritage return home, but it

will be in exchange for mine, and will be heavily in my favor.

 

Owen Miller

[vintageproductions]

You can fly to Japan now and hit any of the vintage clothing stores and buy back all you want. It just takes money.

 

My last trip I bought three jump jackets and two pair of trousers out of vintage clothing stores in Koenji for less then I could ever buy them at a show here.

 

Have also bought back many flight jackets I sold in Japan ten years ago, that are now priced at wholesale prices compared to shows here in the US.