M-14 use in Vietnam

[hawkdriver]

When did the Army convert from the M-14 to the M-16? I am getting ready to do a earl Vietnam set-up, but cannot find anywhere when the Army no longer used the M-14.

[patchtrader864]

my unit 864th engineers had the m 14 up to nov. dec . 1969 then m16 . we loved our m14 's . patchtrader864

[Bob Hudson]

Check out the Wikipedia article on the M14, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle ,which says in part

 

The rifle served adequately during its brief tour of duty in Vietnam. Though it was unwieldy in the thick brush due to its length and weight, the power of the 7.62 mm NATO cartridge allowed it to penetrate cover quite well and reach out to extended range, developing 2,470 ft·lbf (3,250 J) of muzzle energy. However, there were several drawbacks to the M14. The traditional wood stock of the rifle had a tendency to swell and expand in the heavy moisture of the jungle, adversely affecting accuracy. Fiberglass stocks were produced to resolve this problem, but then the rifle was muzzle heavy. However, the rifle was discontinued before very many could be distributed for field use. Also, because of the M14's powerful 7.62x51mm cartridge, the weapon was virtually uncontrollable in fully automatic mode. The M14 was developed as a means of taking the place of four different weapons systems — the M1 Garand, the M1 Carbine, the M3 "Grease Gun" and the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR). It was thought that in this manner the M14 could simplify the logistical requirements of the troops if it took the place of four weapons. Although it proved to be an impossible task to replace all four, the weapon excelled as a replacement for the M1 rifle, fixing many of the previous rifle's shortcomings. The cartridge was too powerful for the SMG role and the weapon was simply too light to provide as a light machine gun replacement for the BAR. The M60 machine gun better served this task.

 

The M14 remained the primary infantry weapon in Vietnam until it was replaced by the M16 in 1966–1969. The M16 was ordered as a replacement for the M14 by direction of Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, over the objection of those Army officers who had backed the M14 (other factions within the Army research and development community had opposed the M14 and the 7.62x51 round from the start).

[Greg Robinson]

When did the Army convert from the M-14 to the M-16? I am getting ready to do a earl Vietnam set-up, but cannot find anywhere when the Army no longer used the M-14.

 

The US Army got the M16 early.....the 7th Cavalry had them at Ia Drang in November 1965. If you study the history of that weapon you'll see that they had a lot of problems with it's reliability until it was modified to an M16A1.

 

Marines carried the M14 in Viet Nam much later.

 

Greg

[New Romantic]

When did the Army convert from the M-14 to the M-16? I am getting ready to do a earl Vietnam set-up, but cannot find anywhere when the Army no longer used the M-14.

 

First figure out what unit you are going to display. As Greg mentioned the USMC carried the M14 after most Army Infantry units were armed with the M16.

 

As for the Army, two Divisions I can think of arrived in Vietnam with the M14 and that weapon was carried for a few months before they were replaced with the M16. The 1st Infantry Division arrived in Nov(?) 1965 and they carried the M14 through early 1966. The 25th Infantry Division arrived in Jan 1966 and they carried the M14 before being issued the M16 in March 1966. My father who served in C 2/27th was one of those soldiers.

[New Romantic]

Nice display of items!

 

Well it looks like you already have early Vietnam 1965-1966 covered. All you need is to put together a set of M1956 gear like you have. M1910 canteens would also be carried. The Lightweight rucksack didn't see widespread issue til mid 1967.

[hawkdriver]

Yes, I do have a early Vietnam, but got to thinking that I didn't know the period when the M-14 ended. Since my display is Late 65 to early 66, I didn't wan't it to follow the M-14 and then find out that it was off canter.

The tough part of displaying is what to show versus what was worn. The late Vietnam display, with the exception of the first aid pouch is all M-1967 gear, knowing that almost no one had all M-1967 gear at any one time. I guess it is my little cross to bear.

[hotlead]

The late Vietnam display, with the exception of the first aid pouch is all M-1967 gear, knowing that almost no one had all M-1967 gear at any one time. I guess it is my little cross to bear.

 

It's OK, I put together two all M1967 sets myself. One with 20rd M16 ammo cases, and one with 30rd M16 cases( for my M14 )

 

An early Vietnam web set wouldn't look much different whether for M14 or M16. Only the rifle, mags, and bandoleers would be different, but not web gear so much.

 

Hey, I don't see any 782 gear, It's in another room right? where you keep the really good stuff?

[Chris_B]

In Fred Downs jr's book, he describes how the point man carried the platoon's M14 as he would likely be first to fire, and the M14's rounds would be less likely to be deflected by branches and foliage. He was seriously injured in '68, so his description was for either '67 or '68

[hawkdriver]

Hey, I don't see any 782 gear, It's in another room right? where you keep the really good stuff?

 

Color me stupid, but what s 782 gear??

[Greg Robinson]

Color me stupid, but what s 782 gear??

 

USMC unit issue equipment was signed for on a form 782. And the Marines typically call it "782 gear".

[Abn Inf]

A little more information on the M16. The 1st Brigade of the 101st Abn Div was issued M16's about May or early June 1965.

[BOB K. RKSS]

During 1968 the M-16 was slowly replacing the M-14; as M-16 supplies became available, but the M-14 was still being issued; as primary weapon to many non-infantry ARMY units (such as convoy drivers). The M-14 remained the primary issue rifle to all USMC units for most of (or all ???) the War. M-14 production was stopped in 1968; when the Springfield Armory was closed down. I found the M-14 was superior if used from a fixed defensive position, but the M-16 was much better in the field; because it was much lighter for carrying around, & could be easily fired full-auto. I had both, plus a 1911-A1; to be prepared for any situation.

[Greg Robinson]

Production of the M14 was halted in 1964 after nearly a million and a half of them had been produced. I believe this was at the order of the Sec of Defense. Robert McNamara. But the M14 remained in the field for years after this. The Marine Corps didn't adopt the M16A1 as their standard rifle until the early 1970's however Marines in the FMF WestPac started using it in 1967. But even then individual Marines continued to carry the M14 for a while after that, not trusting the M16 to be reliable in combat.

[hawkdriver]

Ah, 782. I chose early on to collect and display only Army as I only have limited resources and collecting anything USMC can be an expensive proposition. The only thing I own is a M-1949 USMC sleeping bag that I stumbled onto by accident.

One more question about the M-14, did anyone ever carry the M6 bayonet on the shovel cover? I'm thinking that while this was a handy way to do it, that very few Soldiers ever did.

[ksp45]

fyi the navy and marines still use the m-14 today

[J_Andrews]

My brother commanded C/4-23 IN, 25th Inf Div until Sep 66. When they turned in their M-14s as primary (not SOLE) rilfe, they kept back enough M-14s for one or two per squad AND a like number for use on perimeter guard duty at fire support bases. They made sure all were selective-fire and tried to keep as many as possible that were the M-14E2, with heavier barrel and bipod. At squad level, one would be used by what is nowadays called a Designated Rifle Marksman (the best shot in the unit) and one would be used as a squad automatic (to establish weight of fire when ambushed). He also stated, as his bn came from Alaksa and EVERY NCO in Alaska prided themselves on being Mighty Hunters, they eschewed the "pop gun" and frequently carried their very own M-14s.

 

I knew a LT from 1-20 IN. Americal who said his platoon (of about 25-30 men) had M-14s for about every third troopie. This was because they had little respect for the reach or stopping power of the M-16, and because the NVA who stalked them would hear the 14s and assume they were M-60s, hence outgunned.

 

BTW the M-14 is AGAIN in wide use by the ARMY, in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN, in the role(s) described by my brother: DRM and perimeter defense. M-60 MGs are also again in wide use, on motor convoys, checkpoints and perimeter. Accurized M-14s with scopes are also, of course, used by sniper teams; at least some of these are either newly-made or thoroughly rebuilt.

[Charlie Flick]

fyi the navy and marines still use the m-14 today

 

The M-14 Rifle has been very effective in Iraq.

 

Charlie Flick

 

[Captainofthe7th]

By 1967 the M14 was being widely replaced by the M16. 1967 was the first major turning year...

 

It was mostly Marines who had an issue with the replacement. They'd trade with engineers or other guys in the rear who had the 14s still. Both sides were happy to receive the other rifle. An unauthorized field test was done by unit when they were handed fresh M16s. The "guy" from Colt brought a brand new pile of 16s and was handing them out to men who's M16s were deemed unservicable. The clever Marines took a fresh M16 from the stack, threw it in some mud, and got in the back of the line. When the Colt official tested this new but muddied rifle, he deemed it unservicable and was quite embarrassed when told what the Marines had done.

 

I have a friend that stole an M2 carbine and an Australian pistol because he HATED the M16 and said his .45 pistol rattled when he fired it.

 

I have a book mark about it somewhere...

 

Rob

[J_Andrews]

I should add that I was GIVEN three M-14s in Jan 1971 in Quang Tri MACV, by the compound Security Platoon. Two were Winchesters and one was H&R; one had 11 notches and "Semper Fi" cut into the stock.

 

They had been told to turn in their remaining M-14s by a newly arrived, officious NCOIC (self-made "First Sergeant", though he was an E-7.....and he was AG branch). The NCOIC had seen a rack of maybe 10 M-14s in their alert shed, but there were (at least) three more, the ones I got (to make them disappear).