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Angus & Coote of Sydney, AUS: examples and patterns


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Patchcollector

Now that is interesting!The pin and catches look pretty massive too.Looks like it was worn though.

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rustywings

In keeping with Angus & Coote authentic badges vs reproduction badges, here's an expensive cast stinker currently listed on ebay (#311357535608) looking for an unsuspecting buyer...

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did they even make USN wings at all RC?

 

and Patrick.. do you think yours minus hallmark could be a very well made CBI wing modeled from an original A&C???

The more I look at it and the more I think about it... I have postulated this theory. : )

 

-Brian

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You never want to say never, but I don't think this wing is cast. I think it is exactly what it appears to be, a grubby Angus and Coote wing that someone defaced the hallmark off of for some reason. I don't actually have in it with me right now, otherwise I would take some better pictures. I paid very little for it, and don't have any worries with it being in my collection. It is what it is.

 

I hear what you are saing BROBs, as someone else once said to me that they thought the wing was an attempt to counteract the "too good" reproductions by making a cast wing that "was too bad" in order to fool collectors anew. So, they made a cast wing that was good enough not to appear cast, but bad enought no to be perfect, and then took off the hallmark so well that you can't really tell it had a hallmark, so that people wouldn't think the hallmark was too perfect...I don't buy into that theory for a second, myself.

 

Ironicially enough, I have 2 other AC wings, a pilot wing that someone clipped off the catch and hinge so that they could epoxy a couple of thumb tacks on the back in order to facilitate it being put up on a bulletin board at a VFW hall and an aircrew wing that some chowder head started to saw down the middle (I assume to was their plane to make jewelry) and just stopped before they cut the darn thing in half! I seem to be destined to never have an undamaged AC wing in my collection.

 

As for defaced hallmarks, I have found more than a few wings like that. I have a S.E. Eby wing that has had the whole hallmark removed for some reason (you can JUSSSTTTT barly make out the remenants), and I had a nice AECo gilt flight surgeon wing whose hallmark was also defaced. I have no idea why these things happened. Everyone is familiar with Orber wings, of course.

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Patchcollector

When I saw Patricks Wing I felt that it had enough of the "tells" on it to be real.The A-C Wings are not known for their "quality control" and their overall less than perfect appearance is viewed as a positive indicator of their authenticity when inspecting them.Why the hallmark is missing may remain a mystery forever.If more turned up,then it would seem that some were made intentionally without the marks,but if this example is singular,it probably was done by(or for) the owner,for whatever reason,IMO.

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You never want to say never, but I don't think this wing is cast. I think it is exactly what it appears to be, a grubby Angus and Coote wing that someone defaced the hallmark off of for some reason. I don't actually have in it with me right now, otherwise I would take some better pictures. I paid very little for it, and don't have any worries with it being in my collection. It is what it is.

 

I hear what you are saing BROBs, as someone else once said to me that they thought the wing was an attempt to counteract the "too good" reproductions by making a cast wing that "was too bad" in order to fool collectors anew. So, they made a cast wing that was good enough not to appear cast, but bad enought no to be perfect, and then took off the hallmark so well that you can't really tell it had a hallmark, so that people wouldn't think the hallmark was too perfect...I don't buy into that theory for a second, myself.

 

Patrick,

I don't mean to say it's a fake made to fool at all. But a maybe a wing made by a CBI craftsman modeled after another guy's A&C wings.

From the back it looks much softer on the strike than the other maker marked A&C wings.. and has an interesting pebbling to it.

 

It could very well be an A&C wing with a removed mark.. but how was the mark removed? You can still see the rectangle where it should be but it looks soft edged.

This could be from buffing it but I don't see any marks to suggest that.

 

Regardless of what it is it's a very nice wing and I feel for sure from the WW2 period as either A&C wings or CBI modeled after A&C.

 

Just the opinion and ponderings of an inexperienced wing collector. :)

-Brian

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I didn't think you thought it was fake, so no worries my friend.

 

What it appears to be is that someone carefully scrapped and gouged the hallmark off and then worked over the rest of the area with a small chisel or gouge, giving it a "stippled" look. When I first found the wing, I could't tell if it had a hallmark or not and initially thought it may have been a variation of a non-hallmarked AC wing. However, if the angle of the light is right, you can see the work that they did.

 

I think in this view, you can see what they did a bit better.

 

post-1519-0-88840100-1431445456.jpg

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Maybe this one is even better. You can see the uneven aspects of where the hallmark was originally located. I think they first gouged the hallmark out (rather than trying to buff it out), which is why it looks kind of uneven and "wavy". Then, they apparently used a small pick or chisel to cut away the hallmark even more, giving it a stippled effect. At a couple of places, you can see where the even hit the edge of the raised section. I think that is what gives this section a less sharp relief. You can also see sections where they didn't do work on the area, especially in the upper left corners.

 

Again, I have no idea why they would have done this :unsure: .

 

It seems that it was done by someone who knew what he was doing. One idea that comes to mind is that the wing may not be sterling silver and they defaced it for that reason. I had read that AECo had a problem with sterling marked wings that weren't in fact sterling silver. They (apparently) were fined and had to remove or deface the incorrectly marked wings). I suspect that my gilt filght surgeon wing was defaced for that reason as I was clearly not sterling silver (It looked like brass to me).

 

Again, who knows.....

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  • 1 month later...

:huh:

Here is another interesting example of an Angus & Coote hallmarked pilot wing. Can it be trusted?

 

Aside from the grainy pics, I'm not really seeing any difference between this example and the recent fakes throughout the thread.

 

Regards

Mike

 

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The absence of all notable characteristics confirming the identity of an authentic Angus and Coote World War 2 period manufactured set of pilot wings is patently evident.

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:unsure:

The well known dealer who knows better has just posted on his website that it's ON HOLD for $250.

 

The absence of all notable characteristics confirming the identity of an authentic Angus and Coote World War 2 period manufactured set of pilot wings is patently evident.

 

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  • 6 months later...

Nice pick-up! It's funny how we, as collectors, now need to seek out certain imperfections in some badges in order to feel comfortable in pursuing their purchase! Years ago, who would've thought a flawless badge would be a red flag?

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  • 1 year later...
muddyboots

I picked these off another forum and the seller is splitting up a 504th Bomb Group. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

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doinworkinvans

The best thing to do is buy as much as you can do it doesnt get split up too bad. The wings look good to me.

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  • 4 months later...

I know this post is quite old, but I recently came across this set of pilot wings, that I am 90% sure they are fake, but wanted to run the images by the forum for confirmation.post-1720-0-50560700-1512062946_thumb.jpgpost-1720-0-89910800-1512062964_thumb.jpgpost-1720-0-00063200-1512063201.jpg

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  • 10 months later...

Just for your information...

 

at least 35 years ago I purchased an Angus & Coote AAF pilot wing from a collectors store in Melbourne, Australia where I lived.

 

I kept it with my small collection of 5th AF items. Not long after, on a visit to a friend near Melbourne, her father (WW2 Australian Army medic in New Guinea) pulled out a box of badges, in it was an Angus & Coote Technical Observer wing (how rare could that be?). He picked it out and gave it to me..... these were the only two AAF wings I owned for many years.

 

In 2000 I moved to Norway and married, in need of funds I put both sets of Angus & Coote wings on a website for sale, I received a call from John Vargas wanting to buy both wings, and so he did.

 

So if anyone wants to see a set of Angus & Coote Technical Observer wings they can ask John to post here or email some photos to them....

I wish I had some decent photos of them but I've only very bad quality old photos of them within my collection.

 

cheers, John

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  • 5 months later...

I wanted to add a recent pick up.. a A&G service pilot wing that I picked up a bit ago (thanks to mghcal for the tip!). This is a very nice thread and it would behoove anyone who wants to buy an A&G wing to study this discussion carefully.

 

The base is a good A&G pilot wing, with a soldered on "S" in a shield.

 

I suppose it is always possible that someone tried to jazz up a good A&G pilot wing to a service pilot rating. But I don't think that is the case here.

 

P

 

 

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post-1519-0-29502800-1551989640_thumb.jpg

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  • 4 months later...
Glider-borne

Hello,

 

I don't understand, all A&G hallmarked wings are counterfeit ?

I start a glider wings collection, mainly for the name of the first owner and his history.

But collect original variants is nice, as well copies. Just want to know the true about each piece for share correctly informations.

 

I bought this A&G to a professional (and friend) who I know since many years.

So I need to put this wings in the counterfeit wings box ? ( "&" on the counterfeit wings is vertically set to perfection)

 

 

P1047436-copie.jpg

 

P1047439-copie.jpg

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I am sorry to inform you of this fact, but the Glider Pilot wing is one of the counterfeits die struck from laser precise cut dies. We have all been there, you are not alone in purchasing a counterfeit wing. These came out in a huge lump sum a few years back and flooded the market until it was brought to light, what was happening and since then they have shown up but not in the numbers they once did as it has been disseminated into the community what these perfect wings from modern manufacturing techniques are. I am on the road so I will take a look at any others when I get home.

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