Angus & Coote of Sydney, AUS: examples and patterns

[pfrost]

There are actually more than a few "tells" aren't there! I had only typically relied on one, but now I see multple areas that work.

 

Also, it was my hope that one day, I would find a sleeper on ebay that all the other collectors were going to avoid because the "fakes are just too darn good". Kind of like that A&C command pilot wing..... But since you all know the way to tell the differences, I fear the prices will start to inch up again. heheh...

[mtnman]

 

RUSTYWINGS WROTE:

 

"Looking at the Glider Pilot illustrated on page 137 of More Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens, there's no doubt the base wing is authentic, but I wonder why Angus & Coote would rivet this two-piece badge, but not their two-piece Navigator or Aircrew badges which are simply soldered together?"

 

 

My Reply:

 

Great point Russ and thus we may have the original reason in MSWPG's Riveted Shield Glider Badge (if it is a counterfeit), that the counterfeits followed that pattern of riveted shield, with the squared off Geometrically "perfect" wings. I still think the shield on the A&C Glider badge in MSWPG looks very similar to the english shield too.

[MikeK]

The only genuine A&C letter wing I have (Service Pilot) and the few I have handy pics of are NOT riveted. I don't have MSWPG available for reference at the moment, so I can't check that wing.

 

Russ, the Observer based wings you posted I think are both fine originals.

 

Re original Pilot based wings, no-one has highlighted the 2 obvious tells on the reverse, nor the fact that original wings have a plated finish.

 

Regards

Mike

[rustywings]

Russ,

 

The question of the Silver Wings wing is a good one (and one that I had actually considered). The question being WHEN was the addition made. But that is always the issue with "add ons" isn't it? An equally valid question could be whether or not the soldered on wings were the ones that were done later? No way to know, other than to handle and decide on your best experience. Unless you are lucky and have a biographical wing that the original owner can verify.

 

P

 

Patrick, I absolutely agree with you. I suspect the Glider Pilot badge illustrated in the MSWPG book may have been a wartime private purchase through a jeweler who riveted the glider shield to a period A&C Pilot wing. I have an American made Pilot wing with the identical glider shield applied with a single rivet. So, the glider shield alteration may have occurred in Australia or America? Regardless of where, or who altered the badge, as long as it's a period piece, I believe it's very collectible.

 

I wonder if the person producing these reproductions saw the illustration in the MSWPG book and decided to add rivets to all of his fake Glider, Liaison and Service Pilot wings? Just wide speculation on my part...

[rustywings]

The only genuine A&C letter wing I have (Service Pilot) and the few I have handy pics of are NOT riveted. I don't have MSWPG available for reference at the moment, so I can't check that wing.

 

Russ, the Observer based wings you posted I think are both fine originals.

 

Re original Pilot based wings, no-one has highlighted the 2 obvious tells on the reverse, nor the fact that original wings have a plated finish.

 

Regards

Mike

 

Hello Mike,

 

It's good to have your involvement in this topic. Excellent point on your part regarding the silver plating! If there's a chance to see an image or two of your authentic A&C Service Pilot badge, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm curious to see if the style of the shield and the font of the letter is similar to the fakes?

 

 

 

 

[MikeK]

Hi Russ,

 

A couple of scans I have on hand of my Service Pilot to follow. Also a clear comparison between the genuine "S" shield and the repro. Also attached will be the only small pic I have on hand of a genuine A&C Glider Pilot Wing (obverse only - not my pic).

 

Regards

Mike

[MikeK]

Reverse

[MikeK]

"S" shield comparison - note similar font but incorrect number and style of lines - the fake lines are again dead straight.

 

Glider Pilot Wing obverse

[mtnman]

Looks like a KG Luke Glider Pilot Wing to me.....Beautiful and RARE....Thx Mike

[MikeK]

Looks like a KG Luke Glider Pilot Wing to me.....Beautiful and RARE....Thx Mike

 

Yes, you're right. Not riveted though!

 

Sorry for confusing the thread.

 

Regards

Mike

[pfrost]

 

Patrick, I absolutely agree with you. I suspect the Glider Pilot badge illustrated in the MSWPG book may have been a wartime private purchase through a jeweler who riveted the glider shield to a period A&C Pilot wing. I have an American made Pilot wing with the identical glider shield applied with a single rivet. So, the glider shield alteration may have occurred in Australia or America? Regardless of where, or who altered the badge, as long as it's a period piece, I believe it's very collectible.

 

I wonder if the person producing these reproductions saw the illustration in the MSWPG book and decided to add rivets to all of his fake Glider, Liaison and Service Pilot wings? Just wide speculation on my part...

 

It is my understanding that the MSWPG book was published in 1997, almost 18 years ago. I believe that the reproduction A&C wings only started showing up around 2008-2009. Even pushing it back to 2007, there is still a goodly and significant time period (>10 years) between when the book was published and the fake conterfit wings (including the rivited alphabet wings) started hitting the market.

 

Of course, the wing in the book could represent a fake made sometime post 1945 using a good A&C pilot wing and a fake "G" shield. Or it is equally as possible that the wing in the book represents a vintage war time piece. I think there is no way to know for sure, (especially if you can't handle it in person) but I think there are some facts that can be gleaned. First (as raised in a few posts above) it is more than likely that at least the glider wing was made by A&C and that these wings were present years before the fakes started showing up en masse. Second, it seems that at least some vintage A&C wing ratings were 2-piecers that had the rating soldered on a base wing. The question is whether or not a riviting process was also used, and if some vintage A&C wings had the ratings put on them in that matter? Riviting of the rating to a base wing isn't that uncommon in WWII vintage wings, as LGB and a number of the English-made wings (ie Fermin) used that process. If I had to guess, I would think that if these wings were in fact made, they would have been made in very small batches (perhaps by a single individual) and so there may have been some variations, including straight soldering as well as riviting.

[Patchcollector]

 

Re original Pilot based wings, no-one has highlighted the 2 obvious tells on the reverse, nor the fact that original wings have a plated finish.

 

 

 

Hi Mike,

I know of the "tells" that you are speaking of.They were discussed in another thread here on the Forum but darned if I can find the thread now,so I took an image that was posted earlier and highlighted the areas of interest.

 

I want to give credit where it is due.The image that I used was posted by bschwartz in post #2 of this thread:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44711-angus-coote-us-aaf-sterling-pilots-wing/?hl=%2Bangus+%2Bwing

[Patchcollector]

Something else I wanted to add here is the weight factor.I'm including a photo of my "good" A&C Wing showing it's weight for reference.

[rustywings]

Hi Russ,

 

A couple of scans I have on hand of my Service Pilot to follow. Also a clear comparison between the genuine "S" shield and the repro. Also attached will be the only small pic I have on hand of a genuine A&C Glider Pilot Wing (obverse only - not my pic).

 

Regards

Mike

 

Thank you Mike. Excellent comparison shots! It's good to know there are authentic A&C Service Pilot badges out there!

 

[B-17Guy]

Mel, thanks so much for taking the time and effort to post your

extensive research on A&C wing badges.

 

Excellent thread, really adds to the A&C pinned thread with much greater detail and depth.

 

Best, John

 

[mtnman]

I've never seen an authentic Angus & Coote hallmarked Aerial Gunner or Bombardier badge either. Are they out there?

Here you go my friend!!

(Compliments of FLYING TIGERS ANTIQUES)

[mtnman]

rear.....

[mtnman]

Please note in the bombardier wing picture above of the obverse. The mirrorlike sheen you see accentuated primarily on the wings themselves, is the silver wash given these wings at manufacture. Most of these wings are going to have all or a portion of the silver wash rubbed off from time in service in the skies of war. These bombardier wings in particular are a great example to get an excellent view of just what the silver wash looks like. If you want to see what it looks like when large portions have been rubbed off, look at the wing from Bob Schwartz' page and his collection, which was the first FULLY AUTHENTIC wing I posted as an example on page 1 of this post. Enjoy gentleman... and I want to add, that I pray this nation is rescued from the annihilation it faces from within, and set to a condition deserving the efforts and lives of the men of today who are ready to lay down the greatest sacrifice for their Families.

[rustywings]

Here you go my friend!!

(Compliments of FLYING TIGERS ANTIQUES)

 

MtnMan,

 

Thank you for posting images of that very scarce A&C hallmarked Bombardier badge. Your terrific thread has opened my eyes to several badges I did not know existed!

 

Russ

[MikeK]

Another Bombardier attached.

 

I don't have an A&C Air Gunner and don't recall seeing one but I'd be surprised if they do not exist.

 

Regards

Mike

[mtnman]

OK Gentlemen, here is an interesting variation on the typical RIVETED Lettered Angus & Coote Wings. The USUAL/TYPICAL design of the Counterfeit A&C lettered wing is likely modeled after the riveted "G" on the A&C Glider in MSWPG, but the counterfeiters/thieves did not stop their, they stamped out versions of AT LEAST the "S" (Service Pilot) as seen here and likely ALL the Lettered A&C Wings ("S", "G", "L") WITHOUT THE RIVETS, JUST LIKE THE ACTUAL WINGS DESIGN as Mike has so Astutely Discerned and so Kindly Shared with us to further protect us from these thieves OR those who sell in ignorance of the counterfeit nature of their wings, which this thread you have all created, will certainly help with rectifying.

 

Below we have a wing being offered right now by a Canadian militaria store site which has much good in his inventory, but is NOT perfect, as none of us are. That is why we must always be very discerning and never buy with emotion but with disciplined consideration and research. Remember the old adage, if you see something that is too good to be true, it most likely is. Slow down and verify, and this will bring not just a fine collection of authentic wings, but discipline into other areas of your life as well.

 

Now to the wing.... Note immediately the "S" on the shield and the typical A&C design of the obverse and then look at the reverse and WOW! NO RIVETS! Do not get excited if you see no rivets on A&C Lettered Wings because the authentication process has JUST begun. Once you verify there are no rivets THEN put your experience regarding the rear of the A & C pilot wings, as delineated on this thread, to work and you will see clearly that these are by no means authentic A & C wings of a Service Pilot or any other pilot. This puts a little more ammunition in our belt to take down these not so masterful reproductions of one of the most unique, finest, most masculine, strength projecting designs of Army Air Force wings during World War II. Blessings as always in your quest to compile collections which reflect the most poignant times in our nation's history.

[pfrost]

Here is another AC pilot wing that I picked up a few months ago. It is very dirty and grungy and pretty well worn. I couldn't get a good picture in good light, so it is hard to see some of the detail. Clearly not one of the recent reproductions.

 

It has a number of the flaws that one looks for on an AC wing. The details look softer than they are because of the lighting problems and because of the grime and dirt.

 

Notice that there is something missing.... the hallmark!

[pfrost]

For some reason, someone carefully defaced the hallmark. It was done a long time ago, I think. Not sure why they would do this?

 

In fact, in hand, it is very hard to even see that the hallmark was actually removed. Go figure--just something different to look at.

[mtnman]

Now Patrick, that is something to see!! Thanks!

[MikeK]

Hi Patrick,

 

Definitely an interesting variation!

 

The only time I have seen maker markings removed (period done) was when an item was believed to have been onsold to another retailer. Eg in this case, a small firm may have bought a few from A&C and removed the A&C logo before selling them. I'm not sure why they'd have removed the STG. SIL. though (maybe too hard to remove one without removing the other?). The obverse pic does seem to indicate strike marks from the reverse affecting the fine line details. One other possibility (remote I think) is that this example was struck before the A&C/Silver wording was worked into the die.

 

Regards

Mike