Angus & Coote of Sydney, AUS: examples and patterns

[mtnman]

COUNTERFEIT ANGUS AND COOTE PILOT WING

[mtnman]

COUNTERFEIT ANGUS AND COOTE WING

[mtnman]

COUNTERFEIT ANGUS AND COOTE PILOT WING

[mtnman]

Gentlemen, remember, the same die was used to create the pilot, senior pilot, glider pilot, liaison pilot and the command pilot wing so when there is a glider and liaison pilot wings where there is a letter shield riveted on top of the foundation shield, you can use the Maker's Mark as one of the deciding factors. Remember there are more tells of authentic wings from Angus and Coote, so study the real wing from Bob Schwartz' collection as well as other known good wings and it will come clear to you that by no means are the counterfeit wings, in any instance, dead on in any way shape or form with the true Angus and Coote wing. Blessings in your collecting as always gentlemen and remember, there is only ONE reason that we are Blessed in any aspect of our life in this world where relationships reveal the true mettle of a man, and that is to BE a Blessing.

[wingman]

Thank you for your excellent analysis of this troublesome problem -- a virtually unmanageable one for new and less experienced collectors.

 

I don't know if you are planning to do this or not, but the alternate logo (round) found on the Bombardier, Navigator, Crew Member and Flight Surgeon wings presents its own special problems.

 

Bravo!

[BEAST]

MTnman, Thanks for the tutorial. Are there similar "tells" for an aircrew wing?

[mtnman]

I am going to try my best to extend this post gentleman. I need pictures of true, authenticated wings with the roundel center so that I can begin to do an analysis of them and gain insight into those wings. Better yet, if the more advanced collectors already have these pictures in hand and know what to display as the tells on the Angus and Coote wings with the roundel center, please add to this post. Please let me know if you want to send me pictures with a PM and I will give an address to forward them to. Thank you for your responses gentleman and blessings as always in your collecting.

[Steve Brannan]

Thank you for this clear delineation of original vs counterfeit. I first saw these counterfeit wings at a military show a year ago but was suspicious of the large quantity for sale, all in unissued condition and all for $95 each. They were too good to be true. Sound familiar. This one of those rare instances where the counterfeit is more detailed than the original. Can we expect more of this type computer copies of rare military insignia in the future? Yes

[mtnman]

By the way, I could use both counterfeit and authentic pictures of aircrew, navigator, bombardier and flight surgeon which is what I meant by the wings with the roundel center... Please forgive my lack of clarity

[tarbridge]

Here are the images of the shields of the Reproduction Angus & Coote Service...Liason and Glider...all three of these display the straight up "&"...on the manufacturer name on reverse as shown earlier in this thread...

 

 

[mtnman]

Well Done tarbridge, THANK YOU! These would be good examples of counterfeit aging process results as well....

[wingman]

I have yet to see one, or be convinced that Angus & Coote EVER made the 'lettered' wings (i.e., L,G & S).

 

If any of my fellow collectors has one, we would all be mighty please to see it.

[BROBS]

I haven't seen one I thought was real...

that doesn't mean there isn't one out there, though... maybe?

 

Thanks a lot for this thread it's very helpful.

 

It would be great if we could do more threads like this on a lot of the highly reproduced items/wings/etc.

-Brian

[mtnman]

I am with you wingman,I have NEVER SEEN A TRUE GLIDER, SERVICE OR LIAISON WING by A&C. It would be a real treat to see one if there are any out there.

[bschwartz]

I did see an A&C Glider wing at Show of Shows in 2004 and I have to believe that was before they were faking them. I didn't get a very good look at it as it was too rich for my blood at the time but there it was in all its splendor in a vendor case. It didn't last long. I saw it on pass one and by the time I got to pass two it was gone. I don't know of anyone who has one in their collection. It certainly can't be a very common item.

[pfrost]

Just an FYI, there is a very nice A&G glider wing shown in the "More Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens" book. I may be wrong, but I believe this book preceeds the currrent A&G fakes.

[mtnman]

I just looked it up and confirmed, you nailed it Patrick. The design indications on the Maker's Mark and the "other indications" ARE RIGHT ON! I totally forgot about that wing in the MSWPG. THANKS for access to your excellent memory and copious experience Patrick. I thought the shield might look TOO MUCH like the Firmin shields, but they are actually SIMILAR BUT not exact in design. The corners are more ROUNDED on the A&C wing but on the FIRMIN LIAISON wing I have, the shield is more SHARP in the angles.

[rustywings]

I have yet to see one, or be convinced that Angus & Coote EVER made the 'lettered' wings (i.e., L,G & S).

 

If any of my fellow collectors has one, we would all be mighty please to see it.

 

 

I've never seen an authentic Angus & Coote hallmarked Aerial Gunner or Bombardier badge either. Are they out there?

[mtnman]

Only seen one from KG LUKE Bombardier , NOT Angus & Coote (From Flying Tigers Antiques Most Excellent Site)

[pfrost]

To expand a bit, here is a comparision with a badge I have (that I belive to be good) and a conterfit posted on another thread by B17 John. I have higlighted a number of the differences in the two wings.

 

 

[rustywings]

Looking at the Glider Pilot illustrated on page 137 of More Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens, there's no doubt the base wing is authentic, but I wonder why Angus & Coote would rivet this two-piece badge, but not their two-piece Navigator or Aircrew badges which are simply soldered together?

 

Here's two more A&C badges for your review. Good or bad?

 

[rustywings]

Reverse:

 

 

[rustywings]

Close up...

 

 

[pfrost]

Aslo, at least on mine, the profile of the wing is much more rounded than the fakes. The fakes have this "coffin" or box edge (see post #3) whilst the real ones have a much more rounded and smooth profile. Maybe that is from wear and tear, but I doubt it.

 

I only have this A&C pilot wing that I can directly compare. I think it would be worthy of seeing some other wings (mabye from Russ?) to see how universal these differences are.

 

When I look at these wings (and I try to handle as many of the conterfitst that I can), you kind of get the "gstalt" that the conterfits are too symetrical, unworn, and sharp (in detail and in the actual physical edges) of the wing.

 

P

 

 

[pfrost]

Ruus,

 

The question of the Silver Wings wing is a good one (and one that I had actually considered). The question being WHEN was the addition made. But that is always the issue with "add ons" isn't it? An equally valid question could be whether or not the soldered on wings were the ones that were done later? No way to know, other than to handle and decide on your best experience. Unless you are lucky and have a biographical wing that the original owner can verify.

 

P