USMCR79 Posted January 5, 2007 Share #1 Posted January 5, 2007 Acouple of Marine GCM's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCR79 Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share #2 Posted January 5, 2007 On the USMC Gcm's....note that these were issues approximatly 1910 with 2 different styles of engraving and formatting (specific date vs. date span) I think that this is interesting since it seems that engraving styles overlapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted July 29, 2007 Share #3 Posted July 29, 2007 here're a couple of good cookies I picked up. Top one is older and rimmed numbered '25298'. Can anyone relate the number to an era? Bottom medal unnumbered, WWII I think. Both unnamed. Anyone know anymore about these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted July 29, 2007 Share #4 Posted July 29, 2007 rear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted July 29, 2007 Share #5 Posted July 29, 2007 number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted July 29, 2007 Share #6 Posted July 29, 2007 Brig USMC GCMs were always awarded with a number engraved, starting with No. 1. This numbered piece you have is indeed a WWI GCM awarded to a Marine who had enlisted for "the duration of the war". There were about 50,000 rim-numbered, un-named medals awarded, regardless of the amount of time served. Issued un-named the numbers are in the 20,000 to 70,000 range. Sadly no existing record of who the particular medals were awarded has been found, such a list did exist at HQMC but is believed to have been destroyed after the numbers were entered into the Marines' SRB, Maybe it's in a dark basement somewhere and eventually will be found! If you have a name and request the Marine's service record book you will often find the number on Page 1. Numbering of medals stopped during WWII. Naming continued to about 1952 when that was discontinued. The second example you have dates probably from 1952 to the 1960s when the "United States Marine Corps" top bar was discontinued. Semper Fi......Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted July 29, 2007 Share #7 Posted July 29, 2007 what year did the numbering actually stop in WWII? thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluejacket Posted July 29, 2007 Share #8 Posted July 29, 2007 Brig Based upon some work reported by the late Al Gleim, the rim numbered USMC GCM medal you have was probably issued between late May and early June 1917. A very early Marine enlistee for the war. Bluejacket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted July 29, 2007 Share #9 Posted July 29, 2007 wow, I wonder where that work was dug up. thanks a lot. where did you find the info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted July 29, 2007 Share #10 Posted July 29, 2007 what year did the numbering actually stop in WWII? thanks again HaHa.....I was afraid you were going to ask that question. It's is not a simple question to answer. But here goes......GCMs were awarded engraved with the recipient's name, enlistment details and numbered sequentially on the reverse from No. 1 in 1896 until 1938 when the numbers reached over 100,000. The last chronologically awarded medal was probably ABOUT No. 100,100. I have No. 100,011 in my collection. Then the Marine Corps in its wisdom decided that that GCMs would be issued both from HQMC and the Department of the Pacific in San Francisco. The HQMC medals would have an "A" prefix and the Dept of Pacific Medals a "B" prefix. and these would also be sequential in a new series. These medals were all awarded engraved on the reverse with the number name enlistment and dates of qualifying service. Then after the war started it was decided to cease engraving medals for Marines who came in AFTER Dec 7, 1941. When they qualified they received a medal with their name and year of award only IMPRESSED on the reverse. BUT Marines who had enlisted PRIOR to Dec 7th still received engraved "A" or "B" medals. Their are examples known also where a WWI Marine who lost his original Rim-numebered medal requested a replacement and received a fully engraved reverse replacement. Impressed Naming continued until 1951 though I have an example to a WM dated in 1952. Are you now totally confused? S/F.........Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted July 29, 2007 Share #11 Posted July 29, 2007 The Al Gleim study which bluejacket references refers to a study of a spread of rim-numbered WWI GCMS based on when known recipients enlisted. Lower number signify early enlistments dates. There was a huge influx of Marines into the Corps after war was declared in April 1917. Actual medals were not issued until about 1920. S/F......Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted July 29, 2007 Share #12 Posted July 29, 2007 does anyone know the old standards for the GC? now it's 3 years without an NJP or Court Martial, entitled to enlisted personnel only. what was it prior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCR79 Posted July 30, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted July 30, 2007 Brig, Based upon a survey that Al Gleim did, it looks like your WWI GCM Recipient may have enlisted in June 1917. Around 1998 Tom Nier and Allen Menke thru OMSA published "The Gleim Medal Letters 1971 - 1997" It is a great reference and I think that it can be purchased thru OMSA - OMSA Medal Notes No. 5 Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted July 30, 2007 Share #14 Posted July 30, 2007 what does OMSA stand for? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrapneldude Posted July 30, 2007 Share #15 Posted July 30, 2007 OMSA is the Orders and Medals Society of America. They're a great, great organization of medal collectors. There are also similar organizations for patch collectors and uniform collectors. AAMUC -- American Association of Military Uniform Collectors, and ASMIC, American Society of Military Insignia Collectors. All have periodical newsletters, outstanding websites, and a vast array of knowledge. Consider membership in one -- it's pretty cheap, and they're great for beginners and old-salts. Semper Fi, by the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted July 30, 2007 Share #16 Posted July 30, 2007 OMSA is the Orders and Medals Society of America. They're a great, great organization of medal collectors. There are also similar organizations for patch collectors and uniform collectors. AAMUC -- American Association of Military Uniform Collectors, and ASMIC, American Society of Military Insignia Collectors. All have periodical newsletters, outstanding websites, and a vast array of knowledge. Consider membership in one -- it's pretty cheap, and they're great for beginners and old-salts. Semper Fi, by the way! I second that motion Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLM Posted July 30, 2007 Share #17 Posted July 30, 2007 The Al Gleim study which bluejacket references refers to a study of a spread of rim-numbered WWI GCMS based on when known recipients enlisted. Lower number signify early enlistments dates. There was a huge influx of Marines into the Corps after war was declared in April 1917. Actual medals were not issued until about 1920.S/F......Bob Bob, Here is a WWI GCM that pretty much throws a monkey wrench into Al Gleim's study and also disproves the rim numbering going to 70,000 only. Cpl. Neil Shannon enlisted on June 13, 1917, but was awarded GCM with rim number 70,141. I'm guessing his Special Court offense held up the award until after he showed heroism and was severly wounded at Boureshe on June 6, 1918. His records I received from NPRC, St. Louis lists the number. Any ideas what was blacked out by NPRC next to his GCM number? Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted July 30, 2007 Share #18 Posted July 30, 2007 Gary The Rim numbers are in the RANGE of 20,000 to 70,000 not exactly those numbers. I have seen no definitive info on what the FIRST rim-numbered medal was nor the last. I have fully reversed engraved Medal No. 19231 to Robert Crooks - 1st Enlistment - 1920 - 1922. The lowest rim # I have is Rim-No. 23503 to Pvt Elmer Gutzman 11th Marines enlisted May 1917 and the highest is No. 70602. This Marine was a Regular; enlisted in Jan 1917 for 4 years and was medically surveyed short of finishing his 4-year enlistment. Under the 4-year requirement at the time they did award him a medal, even though 'duration of war" enlistees were receiving them for several months of service! But he evenyually received his rim-engraved No. 70602 in December 1921. It's quite unusual and scarce as the Rim number is engraved! The theory is they ran out of impressed medals and had produce a very small anount of engraved rims to make up the deficit. I also have a fully reverse engraved medal No. 70919 to Pvt Shelby Metcalf who enlisted for 2 years in 1920 discharged with GCM in 1922. This one still in its little white numbered box. This is a GCM award period with many variables. Eligibility requirements changed and it is confusing to track even with the SRB. Semper Fi......Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted July 30, 2007 Share #19 Posted July 30, 2007 Gary NPRC blacked out "Character: Excellent" which it would of had to have been for him to get the GCM. They "thoughtfully" are required to dedact any reference to conduct, whether Good or Bad! Go Figure................S/F......Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted July 30, 2007 Share #20 Posted July 30, 2007 GaryNPRC blacked out "Character: Excellent" which it would of had to have been for him to get the GCM. They "thoughtfully" are required to dedact any reference to conduct, whether Good or Bad! Go Figure................S/F......Bob unless the requestee is next of kin, I imagine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLM Posted July 31, 2007 Share #21 Posted July 31, 2007 GaryNPRC blacked out "Character: Excellent" which it would of had to have been for him to get the GCM. They "thoughtfully" are required to dedact any reference to conduct, whether Good or Bad! Go Figure................S/F......Bob Bob, I should have thought of that, but for some reason it never registered. The pros & cons sheet NPRC sent with his other records have his numbers blacked out as well, so it would be natural to think they'd black out his character. Thanks! One thing I found with the Ancestry.com horde of Company rosters is that it also lists character, with one of my China 4th Marines GCM's showing him being promoted and demoted between Pvt and Cpl probably ten times in eight years, but having Character: Excellent, with GCM awarded at reenlistment time. Some of those guys were hilarious! s/f, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted August 4, 2007 Share #22 Posted August 4, 2007 I feel like an idiot. The second GC WWII/Korea...well, it has a rim number after all, dunno how I missed it all these months, I'm so embarressed. Rim number 63458. So judging by the issue numbers, would this be earlier than WWII? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted August 4, 2007 Share #23 Posted August 4, 2007 Brig Same answer as in the previously noted rim number. It's WWI awarded to a Marine who enlisted "For The Duration Of The War." The number is not traceable without a name and then you have to get his SRB and maybe the # will be listed. Rim-numbered GCMs are found with numbers in the 20,XXX to 70,xxx range and are exclusive to WWI. S/F.....Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted August 4, 2007 Share #24 Posted August 4, 2007 too bad none of us work at NARA, we could compile rim numbers. long task, but would be a great reference source still can't believe I missed that, haha. paid 20 bucks thinking it was WWII at the time. not a bad surprise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCR79 Posted August 7, 2007 Author Share #25 Posted August 7, 2007 I feel like an idiot. The second GC WWII/Korea...well, it has a rim number after all, dunno how I missed it all these months, I'm so embarressed. Rim number 63458. So judging by the issue numbers, would this be earlier than WWII? All of the rim numbered series was for World War One Service I have #63703 with the certificate which was issued on July 2, 1921 for service October 12, 1918 to January 31, 1919 These are "duration of war" enlistees Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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