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Trying to identify this Screaming Eagle Patch...


Teebo
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Hi all

 

the first one pictured is a 1950's manufactured bird , this has been documented in Emblems of Honor by the Kellers. There is also a surprise about this type of patch, but have to get the book to see.

 

Also the type construction is more 50's than WWII era. These would of been used into the 60's as per Bob.

 

Below is a late 50's early 60's eagle ( for construction comparison) and 11th Air Assault with on blue "goods" or twill , again as per Bob , once laundered it will have the effect of the bird in question.

 

Hans, Bob was referring to the "goods" or twill it manufactured on.

 

I believe the individual who originally collected this patch associated the parrot beak , amoeba eye and blue "goods" / twill as a WWII variant , easily made when you consider the actual WWII variant and research has been fairly recent.

 

Due to the research and documented evidence that The Kellers have done, we can now put this bird to rest as a 50's variant and I like it , would fit into my 50's , 60's eagles-can't afford to collect the different WWII types maybe the odd one or two.

 

Phill

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A type 15 'parrot beak'. This patch doesn't have an attached tab.

 

Bob is right saying that the types doesn't mean anything. It's just a system of cataloguing these patches. They are in fact made by different manufacturers (variations).

 

 

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Hi Hans

 

Just to clarify , your saying the tab is attached or not and the eagle patch is WWII era?

 

Because I look at this Bird as the same era as the one on Blue "goods"/twill from the 50's.

 

I don't have Bando's book so you may have to correct me.

 

Phill

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Hi Hans

 

Just to clarify , your saying the tab is attached or not and the eagle patch is WWII era?

 

Because I look at this Bird as the same era as the one on Blue "goods"/twill from the 50's.

 

I don't have Bando's book so you may have to correct me.

 

Phill

 

Hello Phil,

 

Both are in Mark Bando's Trigger Time booklet, which I have in my library. In it, both patches are mentioned with pictures and with comments that they were coming from WW2 Vets, issued during WW2 or just after VE Day.

When Mr. Bando did his research, he talked to lots and lots of WW2 veterans, already in the 1990s, and saw their shoulder patches of that era. If the things he wrote in his booklet are lies, than what do we have to believe...

 

Yes, my 'parrot beak' has no attached tab. You can see this on the picture I posted of its back. The tab clearly was made separately (different back thread patterns). And when I see the same patch in the booklet, it has no attached tab either because I see staples attaching it to the shield of the patch.

 

Also, it can be stated that at the end of WW2 more other-colored twill backing material was utilized (other than khaki- and OD-colored). When I read the text in the booklet saying that the blue cotton twill 101st was issued to a Vet right after VE Day (lines coming from the Vet himself, this theory could be right.

Also the 'parrot beak' in the booklet was found by a relative of a WW2 Vet, in the Vet's WW2 effects... Do you need more... As I said, why would Mr. Bando lie about that.

 

And regarding to the eye, when I see all the different WW2 types in the booklet, I see filled eyes, some of them with a little detail (extra line next to it), others have one just like the amoebe-shaped eye. It's only near the end of WW2 and post-was that the complete detailed eye appear.

 

Hope this will help to clarify my opinion...

 

Hans

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Gidday Hans

 

Just wanting clarification are you comparing the 1st eagle (no tab) to the 2nd eagle and both are WWII? The 1st eagle has been documented as 50's manufacture and as Bob pointed out worn into the 60's. Not to sure on eagle 3 need to look at the back.

 

Now the 4th eagle looks more to the 50's era than WWII style in reverse weave maybe its a very late war /post war , with that said it is a manufacturing variation. Does Bando show the backs of said eagles? If so the manufacturing would match your one.

 

One of the points that Bando has stressed in his study that eagles were made by the same companies from the 40's to the 60's with slight changes the "eye" as an example so at this stage I don't see a clear known WWII era parrot beak apart from what is stated and shown in Bando's booklet (which i have to get).

 

At this stage Teebo's one I would still have it as 1950's manufacture and need more evidence of the parrot beak in use either end of WWII or post WWII.

 

We do have a few Airborne collectors out there , hopefully they can chime in and show us more parrot beaks in action.

 

Phill

 

 

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Phill, just a question... in what era/year/timeframe would you place the following?

 

 

 

 

 

Both shown here above are WW2-era manufactured, and with the provenance... Many would think the one on the right (65th) is postwar... but no. The reason I posted that one is because of the few back thread.

 

The 101st I've shown here above (a type 4 and on khaki twill backing material to be seen on the edges of the patch), I've added next to the two with the blue cotton twill: not many differences regarding to the eagle... Please, don't compare the colors of the beaks because these scans were made by different scanners.

 

Phill, don't get me wrong with the things I write here in this thread (and may also in other threads), I can understand everyone's reasons for believing some things, and I won't put that aside. I only want to add the information why I believe its otherwise. Other members of this Forum have to do the necessary to 'filter' every point and source for their opinion and beliefs. I guess that's why there's a Forum in the first place.

 

In the next post I've posted a photo of the July 21, 1950 OQMG drawing of the 101st. And I see another date below right corner (written), mentioning 1954. If you look at the eye, it's detailed.

 

 

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It could very well be that many patches, like the one shown above, were in a QM stock and issued some while after WW2 (and may be in the 1950s too - WW2-contracts ran till the early 1950s). This could be an explanation why they are seen till the 1960s... What I want to say is that I found it hard to believe they made eagles with amoebe shaped eyes (both type 3 and 15 as shown) in the 1950s when the drawing says otherwise.

 

 

Hans

 

 

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Gidday Hans

 

Let me premise this discussion with , are we defining WWII SSI as of the end of 8th May 1945 or the time frame these were manufactured and worn? I will also add that I regard WWII schiffli made from 1942-48, why, because there was massive change in the US Army from its WWII organization , multiple units deactivated , new units created , post war occupation in Europe, Japan , Philippines etc..This lead to draw down in the inevitable Government contracts and in our case the use of insignia to be exhausted in the supply system and new SSI re ordered-which in some cases were issued into the 70's.

 

Now with that being said I am comfortable with 65th as WWII era , when it comes to elite units ie 101st that's where we collectors want the definitive answer. I am also comfortable this would be a 40's era WWII/Post WWII era-note that tabs were rescinded 1946-c48/49. Now with 101st as you know, it was deactivated , reactivated became a training Division etc and they wore the patch without the tab into the 50's.

 

Would also add I have seen and missed out on 108th Airborne Division c1946 (both patch and tab) of a similar style to the one pictured which would date to the same period.

 

Phill

 

 

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It could very well be that many patches, like the one shown above, were in a QM stock and issued some while after WW2 (and may be in the 1950s too - WW2-contracts ran till the early 1950s). This could be an explanation why they are seen till the 1960s... What I want to say is that I found it hard to believe they made eagles with amoebe shaped eyes (both type 3 and 15 as shown) in the 1950s when the drawing says otherwise.

 

 

Hans

 

 

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Hi Hans agreed , however the 1950 drawing is the same drawing as in Sept 5 1942 with scribble eye but with added Tab over it. The point being as with WWII , there were post WWII variations and from the same manufacturers. that includes local suppliers where the division was stationed in Camp Beckinridge, Kentucky.

 

I can understand your view and it sounds logical but re the Kellers Emblems of Honor.

 

Below are 50's-60's era eagles in some ways reflects your line of thought.

 

Phill

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... however the 1950 drawing is the same drawing as in Sept 5 1942 with scribble eye but with added Tab over it.

 

 

Phill

 

 

Correct, one 1942 drawing and one 1946 drawing (see below). The former with tab, the latter saying the tab is omitted. However if you get a drawing like this, the detail in the eye is much more refined on the 1950 drawing posted above than on the ones here below. And we all know, during WW2, a manufacturer very often added his own interpretation to a drawing/patch. That's why we have all these variations. I think in later years, when 'pressure' for manufacturing patches decreased a bit, contracts were circumscribed in a much closer and better way, The later, 1950 drawing proves it with much more detail for everything: eye, number of stitches etc...

 

 

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Wow, am I confused.

 

The rest of this group I passed on was all from the WW2 Era. That does not mean this is. Would be nice. I was just curious as this is my oldest to date. But now not sure of the date.

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Hi Teebo

 

Nothing is as clear as mud when it comes to certain WWII era SSI especially Airborne!!

 

What we have here is based on Mark Bando's site/book and the Kellers Emblem of Honor US Airborne. Both have been researched thoroughly. What makes it harder for the collector is that SSI was produced by the same manufacturers from WWII-1960's with slight changes in manufacturing and design. Your patch in question can fit into both camps which makes it harder. Sometimes it comes down to one style of manufactured patch "type" from that era to determine its use. Maybe post more from the collection?

 

Sorry about the confusion but this is why our hobby is great and the forum on here encourages more discussion. I do suggest get the Kellers and Bando's books , look at the variations and come up with your thoughts.

 

Hopefully others will chime in.

 

Phill

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vintageproductions

But, if you can only find one, grab the Keller's book, you will not be disappointed.

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Hans check the Kellers book................

 

Phill

 

Phill,

and suddenly Mark Bando's booklet with Vet statements or statements coming from Vet's relatives has no worth anymore (?).

A 1952 picture with a 'parrot beak', as in Keller's book, doesn't mean the patch was manufactured in 1950 or 1952. This could very well be in 1947, 1948 or 1949. Consider every document, book, search mean, info coming from people... when you are a collector before you draw any conclusions. I'm only trying to think in a wider perspective or point of view.

When Teebo says he got his blue cotton twill patch together with some WW2 era things, it's may be something to consider (with the many reunions after WW2).

That's all...

 

H.

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Gidday Hans

 

I think you answered Teebo's question , that his patch is post WWII.

 

And what of Bando's book/booklet .I answered that in post #38 and have not drawn any conclusions , that is up to the members who read this. However I am glad you added the after thought as we do know that WWII vets have had post WWII items in their possessions re reunions etc..

 

The interesting question is do you regard the patch that you showed WWII or Post WWII?

 

Phill

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I think you answered Teebo's question , that his patch is post WWII.

 

 

 

@ Phill,

I never said that.

At many reunions after the war, Vets were issued wartime manufactured pieces. The manufacture period of Teebo's patch might very well be WW2-era too... To make you happy: may be late war or just after... This is the same reason as with dated pictures of uniforms with patches: a date when a reunion happened, or a date when this picture was taken... doens't mean that this is the same date as the manufacture of that specific patch. Patches often were issued in a much later period.

 

 

@ Teebo: I'll hope this will be a satifactory answer

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Teebo

 

Here is what I would compare your parrot beak v a WWII era parrot beak.

 

Bill Scott has these Birds for sale and I would feel a lot comfortable with top right bird. However you still need to have provenance.Would be great to have the dated box they came out of.

 

And before we go and ID the Type this and Type that, for each one these can range from WWII-50's, going by Bando's site.

 

One more point as the long time collectors know . Vets would add at a later date SSI , pocket patches etc and they couldn't give a monkey about what we collectors look for , after all they went thru a tremendous upheaval and its the patch that they are proud to have worn and to them that's all that matters.

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seven-101st-Airborne-Division-Screaming-Eagle-Shoulder-Sleeve-Insignias-As-A-Set-/131482581123?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e9cf8f883

 

 

Phill

 

 

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Wow, what a surprise when I saw this post - last week I purchased this exact patch that started this thread through ebay - item number 131471710853 purported to be worn by Major Richard Watson from ebay seller antiqueliquidators (Kenny Childs from Augusta, Ga.) yet when I opened my package sent by him - low and behold I got the bait and switch from the scumbag and received a postwar type 10 scribble-eye patch -- Look at the the listing and look at the pics I've posted and you'll notice it's the same patch - How did you come into possession of this patch Teebo (from Augusta), I'd really like to know !

 

 

 

 

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Hate to call this out, but it's the same patch and I hate the thieves, scumbags, cheats and liars that give this hobby a bad name.

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Did you leave negative feedback? I don't see anything for this item. I wonder if it's the same guy I bought it from or someone he sold it to.

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Patchcollector

I've received items from eBay sellers that were "not as described" before and eBay helped me out.Bob if what you won and paid for is not what you received,then contact eBay and let them know what happened.You will receive your money back.Why the seller switched on you is another story.. :o

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Ok, so the patch first posted is a post war patch per the book? Where are the examples of this patch on uniforns from the Camp Claiborne period when the 101st was a training division. The photos and uniform examples I have seen are either a type 2 eagle without tab, or the parrot head example also posted on this thread. When the 101st reactivated in 1956 the velvet based patch and and type 10 and type 14 seems to be the type prevalent patch on examples and photos. Where are the examples of this type in post war use photos and examples on uniforms in collection ? Best Paul

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