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Period Photo's WWI USMC Helmets w/EGAs


Maple Creek
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  • 2 weeks later...
Maple Creek

Right. So this supports the idea that there were a variety of approaches to making the hole to accommodate the EGA. There wasn't a USMC regulation mandating that holes be punched from the outside in, or punched rather than drilled. The only kind of rule would be "whatever works." I bet there are some original USMC M17s with glued or welded EGAs. Wouldn't surprise me. Of course this creates a problem for collectors trying to sort the good from the bad (repros or misrepresentations).

Mark D.

 

I have a Mk I with EGA where the hole was punched from the inside so the nut rests flush against the shell.

 

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All -

 

This is a fascinating thread about an oft discussed topic! I suppose there will never be a definitive answer. I have always been of the belief that the EGA's on the helmets were either post war or officer worn during the war. It looks from a pic above however that perhaps some enlisted marines wore them, but perhaps in HQ units?

 

I discount the Thomason book as evidence because he was clearly pro-marine and his goal was to give them some publicity after their WWI exploits - It has always been somewhat obvious to me that adding the EGAs to the helmets in the illustrations in his book was a way to differentiate the marines from regular US Army troops and to make sure the readers knew who they were reading about.

 

As far as whether the holes were punched or drilled my question is, and please excuse my innocence or lack of knowledge in this area, where would the marines have had access to power drills in WWI? I mean has anyone tried to ever drill a hole in steel with a hand cranked drill? Seems to me like the punch method would be the easiest and most expedient and perhaps even the only way to create a hole in a steel helmet shell in 1918?

 

Very best!

 

Bill K.

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All -

 

This is a fascinating thread about an oft discussed topic! I suppose there will never be a definitive answer. I have always been of the belief that the EGA's on the helmets were either post war or officer worn during the war. It looks from a pic above however that perhaps some enlisted marines wore them, but perhaps in HQ units?

 

I discount the Thomason book as evidence because he was clearly pro-marine and his goal was to give them some publicity after their WWI exploits - It has always been somewhat obvious to me that adding the EGAs to the helmets in the illustrations in his book was a way to differentiate the marines from regular US Army troops and to make sure the readers knew who they were reading about.

 

As far as whether the holes were punched or drilled my question is, and please excuse my innocence or lack of knowledge in this area, where would the marines have had access to power drills in WWI? I mean has anyone tried to ever drill a hole in steel with a hand cranked drill? Seems to me like the punch method would be the easiest and most expedient and perhaps even the only way to create a hole in a steel helmet shell in 1918?

 

Very best!

 

Bill K.

Hello Bill,

 

I remember this issue being discussed in the late 60's-early 70's, and apparently continues to this day. Original issued and worn WWI U.S. Marine Corps helmets with EGA affixed were not drilled. I would personally question anything glued or welded as well. The last WWI Marine Veteran I spoke with was in the late 70's-early 80's. I was told they used a square shaped nail. The hole was either "punched in" or "punched out" low, center mast, or high on the front of the helmet. Not one legit WWI USMC helmet I have, or have had in the last 40+ years of collecting these artifacts came with anything other than the hole being punched for EGA. Folks can believe what they want, but that's the way I see it and my opinion will not change.

 

S/F,

 

Chuck

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Hello Bill,

 

I remember this issue being discussed in the late 60's-early 70's, and apparently continues to this day. Original issued and worn WWI U.S. Marine Corps helmets with EGA affixed were not drilled. I would personally question anything glued or welded as well. The last WWI Marine Veteran I spoke with was in the late 70's-early 80's. I was told they used a square shaped nail. The hole was either "punched in" or "punched out" low, center mast, or high on the front of the helmet. Not one legit WWI USMC helmet I have, or have had in the last 40+ years of collecting these artifacts came with anything other than the hole being punched for EGA. Folks can believe what they want, but that's the way I see it and my opinion will not change.

 

S/F,

 

Chuck

 

Chuck -

 

Lol! I was going to start my original post off with "we used to talk about this is the early 80's and 90's". :)

 

My buddy and I interviewed a WWI USMC veteran in the late 80s or early 90s - he was in an assisted living facility and kind of fading in and out in terms of his mental faculties. I'll have to pull out the tape we recorded him on and listen again to what he said about what he wore and so forth.

 

That said, I would agree with your assessments.

 

As far as painted stuff, I think the thread was about metal EGAs affixed to WWI era helmets - Painted USMC WWI helmets I believe are all post war.

 

Very best,

 

Bill K.

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As far as painted stuff, I think the thread was about metal EGAs affixed to WWI era helmets...

 

Very best,

 

Bill K.

 

You are correct. Original WWI Marine painted helmets have been discussed many times over.

 

Moderator please feel free to delete posts 30-33.

 

Thank You,

 

Chuck

 

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"I discount the Thomason book as evidence because he was clearly pro-marine and his goal was to give them some publicity after their WWI exploits - It has always been somewhat obvious to me that adding the EGAs to the helmets in the illustrations in his book was a way to differentiate the marines from regular US Army troops and to make sure the readers knew who they were reading about."

 

Most of the illustrations in John Thomason's book Fix Bayonets were sketches made on the battlefield. He drew all of the time and could often be seen drawing while they were under fire. If he drew EGA's on Marine helmets it was because EGA's were on the Marines helmets. He drew what he saw. "When a German machine gun nest held up a Marine advance at Soissons 18 July 1918, Thomason and one of his men fearlessly advanced on the position and killed 13 of the enemy. For his heroism he received the Navy Cross and the Silver Star." Artist and Hero!

 

Dick

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Kanemono -

 

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree regarding Thomason's illustrations. However, I DO agree he was a hero! As you say, he was an artist and artists often take artistic license and I think that is what he did. Note the other photos above of paintings - Anyone ever see a "USMC" marked WWI meat can pouch?

 

Very best,

Bill K.

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  • 2 months later...
Leatherneck72

There is photographic and forensic proof that the Marines had EGA's on their helmets as early as the Chateau-Thierry Campaign.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yes, definitely agree, they did have them prior to BelleauWoods, even egas that have been recovered on helmets at Chateau Thierry. The naysayers can't dispute that proof.

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Dr. Bill et al -

 

I think it has been generally agreed and seems clear from photos that officers were the most likely marines to wear the EGA on their helmets and did so quite frequently. So, I think it is not surpising that USMC helmets with EGAs were found at Belleau Wood. However, I do not think that constitutes irrefutable evidence that enlisted marines wore EGAs on their helmets and certainly, if they did, not frequently. How do we know they were EM helmets? Just like any other archaelogy finds like that require context to determine what units were there on what part of the battlefield and when. Just digging something out of the ground doesn't exactly prove anything per se. My guess is there is a HIGH likelihood that they were helmets worn by officers. My thinking is that if you have 10 mannequins in WWI usmc uniforms your officer would have an EGA on his helmet and perhaps ONE of the enlisted men.

 

I say if you like WWI helmets with EGAs that is very cool collect all you want! :) Same with camouflaged helmets - if that's your thing go for it! They are some of the most beautiful WWI era artifacts I have ever seen. What I would say is jut please be careful you make sure people understand these were not representative of the norm in terms of helmets that were worn in the field in combat in WWI by US soldiers and marines.

 

My worthless 2 cents :blink:

 

Best to all -

 

Bill K.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Personally I don't think any Marine or soldier would put or could put an emblem on the front of his helmet as a bulls eye for the enemy to target. I believe all were post WWI done.

Even though I have one from a WWI US Marine grouping, I still say it was done post war!

Just my opinon,

Ken

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devildog34

Not to beat a dead horse but it is worth repeating that there are wartime photos of Marines wearing them so we know that some Marines had them during the war. How frequently this was done is another question and I think logically most agree that it was by far the exception not the norm. I know this picture has been posted before numerous times but worth revealing that there were in fact birds worn on lids during the war. There are Marines such as John West and Randolph Zane in this photo who were wounded and did not return and Zane died of his wounds so we know it was taken during the war. The date that I recall is June 17 which makes sense as the remnants of 2/6 would have just been pulled out of the woods having attempted to relieve 2/5 but was caught in perhaps the worst gas barrage to befall any unit in the AEF the night June 13-14 where most of the 96th and 78th Companies were evacuated gassed. I believe after the war is was obviously extremely common but I still believe some units may not have as 1/6 lids seem to often come without birds. Headquarters 6th Marines often come without birds. All we can do until some one comes across the written directive regarding this is speculate, gather evidence before us and make our own sound judgment.

Semper Fi

Kevin

post-2182-0-56881800-1436146919.jpg

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Bellumbill

Kevin -

 

Re-read my post - I agree there is excellent evidence of officers wearing EGAs on helmets in WWI - the pic you posted is all officers so not so surprising. Though that said only 3 out of the 12 officers are wearing the EGAs on their helmets, 25%. The only photos l have seen of enlisted men with the EGAs on helmets are in HQ units where their proximity to large groups of officers and perhaps under less front line combat stress i can see might have picked up on the practice or grabbed an officer helmet at random.

 

Very best to all -

 

Bill K.

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devildog34

Kevin -

 

Re-read my post - I agree there is excellent evidence of officers wearing EGAs on helmets in WWI - the pic you posted is all officers so not so surprising. The only photos l have seen of enlisted men with the EGAs on helmets are in HQ units where their proximity to large groups of officers and perhaps under less front line combat stress i can see might have picked up on the practice or grabbed an officer helmet at random.

 

Very best to all -

 

Bill K.

 

Bill I agree with you, and my reply was not necessarily in response to your comment. I have a picture of an enlisted Marine with his EGA on his lid that I believe is a wartime photo but I cannot confirm it as there is no date on it from NARA but it has all the earmarks of wartime attire including his gas mask being worn and I have not idea as to what unit was his. There is movie footage I have posted here before where you can see enlisted Marines with birds on lids, so again all we are left with is speculation until that juicy nugget of evidence pops up. I believe the practice was done throughout the war but I believe, as has been reiterated time again by others, that it was far and few who did so comparatively. I like the mystery of it all, it makes this fun.

 

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