N.S. Meyer: Real vs. Reproduction, Maker marks, "Tells"

[cwnorma]

24 minutes ago, Phroger46 said:

I actually have a pawn shop that will buy them for sterling and melt them down, but I'm not sure if that is acceptable practice in the community. 

Many pawn shops are not exactly known for being paragons of virtue but if they do actually melt the fakes (not merely buy at silver melt value then resell) doing so removes a fake from the market and preserves the value of the metal.  That seems like an ethical solution.  And, fewer fakes in collections is a net positive.

 

Chris

[Threewood]

Good or bad? WW2 Meyer Metal Naval Aviator wings. From the pics I can't tell if the pin opens 180 degrees, hard to see. Raised shield and hallmark. I haven't found any pictures of a MeyerMetal WW2 style navy wing.

[bschwartz]

That's an interesting Naval Aviator wing. I too have never seen a WW2 style Meyer Naval Aviator marked with Meyer Metal. There's nothing about that wing that screams restrike to me but I would love to examine it in hand. The way the pin is photographed makes it hard to see if it has the stop style hinge or not. Everything else about the wing looks right to me.

[5thwingmarty]

I don't think any hard cutoff date has ever been given for them to stop using Meyer Metal to make insignia. If the predominant use of clutches rather than hinged pins is really a WWII development, then it would appear Meyer continued using Meyer Metal  to make wings well into WWII as there are a lot of clutch-back collar insignia made with Meyer Metal .

 

It is my understanding that Meyer Metal was an alloy (I don't know the composition) that had a gold tone, so these insignia could be cleaned and polished without fear of removing an actual gold outer layer because their was no outer gold layer.  Maybe someone who has access to an XRF can test a Meyer Metal insignia and find out what they are made of.

[bschwartz]

Don't disagree that they may have still used it, Marty. Just saying I've never seen a WW2 style Naval Aviator marked as Meyer Metal. It's an interesting Meyer variant.

[Bull Moose]

I posted about a this type wing earlier in this thread (#66), didn’t receive much attention. 

 

[Threewood]

Here's another angle of the back. I'm still uncertain of the pin style.

[5thwingmarty]

Bob, I agree that I didn't recall seeing this pattern of Meyer Naval Aviator wing with a Meyer Metal mark either.  Its funny how there was at least one other example that had already been posted in this thread.

 

On this most recently posted wing, how far does the pin open?  I am like Bob in that I cannot tell if the pin has the lobe at the hinge to keep the pin from flopping over 180-degrees.  This last photo looks like it might since the pin goes from round to flattened at the hinge.

[Bull Moose]

Here is photo with Meyer’s description of some of their different materials.

 

I have a couple other MeyerMetal wings, next time I’m at my friends coin shop I will have them test for metal content.

[Threewood]

3 hours ago, 5thwingmarty said:

Bob, I agree that I didn't recall seeing this pattern of Meyer Naval Aviator wing with a Meyer Metal mark either.  Its funny how there was at least one other example that had already been posted in this thread.

 

On this most recently posted wing, how far does the pin open?  I am like Bob in that I cannot tell if the pin has the lobe at the hinge to keep the pin from flopping over 180-degrees.  This last photo looks like it might since the pin goes from round to flattened at the hinge.

The more I look, the more it doesn't seem to have the cam. The pin looks period and thick,  but doesn't seem to extend over the back of the pivot. Here is a Meyer pilot wing with the correct pin for reference. I sent the seller a message asking about the pin opening.

[Phroger46]

I haven't seen any identification of USMC aircrew wings. These came off a WW2 4th MAW uniform. Obviously the pin has been replaced, but what are thoughts about the rest of the wing? There aren't a lot of examples on WW2 Wings.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

3 hours ago, Phroger46 said:

I haven't seen any identification of USMC aircrew wings. These came off a WW2 4th MAW uniform. Obviously the pin has been replaced, but what are thoughts about the rest of the wing? There aren't a lot of examples on WW2 Wings.

Appears fine. Not seen restrikes of these.

[pfrost]

I believe that this NS Meyer pattern with the fine feathering is actually a post KW vintage version.  The exact dates of manufacture are probably not clear, but typically I have seen these considered to fall in that range.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

That is my dating understanding as well

[Bull Moose]

On 1/10/2025 at 9:29 AM, 5thwingmarty said:

I don't think any hard cutoff date has ever been given for them to stop using Meyer Metal to make insignia. If the predominant use of clutches rather than hinged pins is really a WWII development, then it would appear Meyer continued using Meyer Metal  to make wings well into WWII as there are a lot of clutch-back collar insignia made with Meyer Metal .

 

It is my understanding that Meyer Metal was an alloy (I don't know the composition) that had a gold tone, so these insignia could be cleaned and polished without fear of removing an actual gold outer layer because their was no outer gold layer.  Maybe someone who has access to an XRF can test a Meyer Metal insignia and find out what they are made of.

 

Stoped by my friends Coin Shop today and had one of my Meyer Metal (no berries between the wars) Naval Aviator wings tested for metal content. It is 88% copper and 12% zinc which is the metal content of Bronze.

 

 

[5thwingmarty]

Bronze is 88% copper and 12% tin, not zinc.

[Bull Moose]

Oops, thanks for the correction.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Which is why they gave it the trade name of "Meyer Metal", not Bronze. 

[5thwingmarty]

And although "gold" colored they contain no actual gold, and being one solid metal the outer finish would not rub off.  Meyer probably never divulged the metal composition or disclosed that Meyer Metal did not contain any actual gold.

[Threewood]

Meyer Liason Pilot Wings. This only has the shield next to the hinge, no sterling stamp. Checks the boxes for a good Meyer wing.

 

[Threewood]

Meyer Metal Naval Aviator wings. New to me.

[Threewood]

This is a new to me wing. Meyer incised shield and sterling mark. I believe this is what is considered a first pattern.

[B-17Guy]

Correct, First Pattern Meyer Pilot.

These were produced in Sterling, Brass and Nickel.

John

[pfrost]

Nice wing. You are correct; it is the "first pattern" or Adams Pattern NS Meyer wings (probably used from about 1919 up to KW). Not to be confused with the pelican beak pattern that first appeared in WWII and was more than likely used past the KW.  There is also a third pattern, pelican beak, and maybe even a 4th (also circa WWII).  This ADAMS style only shows up in some of the early ratings (pilot, observer, balloon series, airship and TO (IIRC)).  Never in the later WWII ratings, like the gunner, bombardier, navigator, alphabet wings). However, senior and command pilot wings also appear in this rating, always made by adding the star or wreath to the pilot wings.

 

Still, these were popular wings, and I have a few WWII-vintage autobiographical NS Meyer Adams-style wings from guys who got their wings mid- and late-war.

 

 

There are some nice threads about these variations scattered throughout the forum

 

The Adams-style pilot wings are not very rare, and can be found pretty easily. What gets even more interesting is the senior and command pilot variations. For the senior pilot variations, they had different stars (stars on stilts, stars with the stilts added separately, and stars without stilts.  There are a few threads where that was broken down to some extent here.
 

 

NS Meyer wings... the gift that keeps on giving collectors heart burn!  LOL