N.S. Meyer: Real vs. Reproduction, Maker marks, "Tells"

[pfrost]

According to JoeW, who once sent me an unsolicited email about NS Meyers, is that they actually employed multiple manufacturers for their insignia and that is why you tend to find so many different styles and placements.

 

I suspect that for this reason, many of the different styles overlap rather than precede each other in order.

 

I think that too many collectors try to think about these things in a linear fashion with nice clear "demarkations" between wings and patterns. "Pre-war, early v late 30's, 20's vintage, early WWII, late WWII, KW-vintage Frankly, I think many of these are artifacts of what people what to think rather than what is really the case. It's almost like the collectors want the manufacturers to have said -- "Well, the Japanese went and did it now, lets go make new dies now that WWII has started!".

 

Broadly speaking, the NS Meyer Adam's style USAAC wings (pilot, observer, balloon, airship, etc) all are probably all from the 20's and 30's. The USAAF Pelican wings were probably made from WWII (lets just say circa 1942 when all the new ratings were authorized) all the way up until the cold war. The USAF wings with the alpha/numeric wings were made from the late-50's/early 60's until NS Meyer went out of business.

 

USAAC wings in the Adam's design seemed to have just used the shield (~1919 to 1942). Pelican wings used all sorts of different variations and placements (1942-1960). Alpha/numeric used letter/number (1960-current). There are probably exceptions to this rule and a fair amount of overlap. With NS Meyer, their is almost always exceptions to this rule and overlap. Frankly, trying to "date" a wing to any more than these broad time periods outside of a "biographical wing" is (IMHO) silly.

 

IIRC the first wave of NS Meyer restrikes started showing up in the 80's (in some of the harder to find ratings--balloon, TO, airship). Made by NS Meyer for the collector market, they were made with the original dies and had the "wrong" pins. Since that time, there seem to have been multiple other waves of restrikes like the alphabet wings (they had wrong pins and also a shinny black glossy finish on the back).

Since then, you see other NS Meyer-like wings to fool collectors, like NSM wings with the hallmarks removed (and not infrequently with a fake hallmark added instead). You see wings where the "wrong" pin is removed and replaced with a vintage wing. One thing I don't see is where the pin and catch are removed and replaced with a clutch back.

 

Finally, B17 John is spot on, there really isn't much proof other than general observations and specific biographical wings that can be used to nail down the date of when these were made (much less sold or worn).

 

Sill, no matter what, as a collector you have to decide on your own about NSM wings. I can promise you that no matter what, 3 people will say one way and 2 will go the other.

 

P

[hawk3370]

Vietnam era

 

This Gentlemen is why I haven't dived into the WW2 wings arena. Like the computer age of which I am totally ignorant (Still living in the pencil and eraser stage of life) I find the WW2 wings confusing to say the least. I have learned how to turn on the computer, check my e-mail and the forum and I can pick up a WW2 wing, say that's nice and put it back.

 

Terry

[rustywings]

As stated several times above by dedicated aerial badge collectors, the only way to really get an edge on not getting burnt with reproductions and restrikes, is to get out there and handle as many examples as possible and absorb what is right as much as what is wrong with each piece.

 

This also means making the effort to seek out reputable dealers and fellow collectors to help expand your exposure to authentic wings before you open your wallet.

 

Check out ebay auction #321998283239 which describes an "Original Pre-WWII N.S. Meyer U.S. Observer Sterling Silver wing..." and "Vintage...nice piece to add to your WWII wing collection." Obviously the seller doesn't have a clue what he's listed, but his verbiage in the description could certainly be appealing enough to lure an unsuspecting buyer.

 

In reality, this listed Meyer restrike is attempting to portray an extremely rare 1920 Observer's badge to only be worn by those who previously qualified as a Pilot. The badge was authorized for only a year before they changed the design by removing the "U.S." from the center.

 

I believe a new collector will likely encounter hundreds, if not thousands of these restrikes before he runs across an authentic 1920-1921 period piece. And in all likelihood, will have to pay $1,000.00 to $1,500.00, not "$128.95 buy-it-now" to add it to his collection.

 

Here's the current ebay listing:

[rustywings]

For comparison, here's what I believe an authentic Meyer-made 1920's Observer badge should look like. Note the incised Meyer shield (further debunking the quote from "A Companion To Wings Of WWII"); the very small "STERLING" stamp; the Tiffany style lever catch; the cam-stop pin; the additional feathering details; and the overall appearance and surface texture of the reverse.

 

For me, sometimes these wings talk and make it easier to decipher what is right or wrong with the badge. After handling many Meyer restrikes, this badge screamed authenticity at me!

[rustywings]

I hope I'm not pushing this subject of Meyer restrikes vs. Meyer original badges beyond the point of interest, but if you have any tough-to-find original Meyer badges you'd like to share, this might be the ideal thread to do so... and I for one, would sure like to see them!

[Patchcollector]

I found this image of various Meyer hallmarks on another thread from this Forum.Would figure # 4 be the match for the one I posted?

[B-17Guy]

That diagram has been around for a long time.

I have seen legitimate Meyer wings not fall within the guidance set by this chart.

To be honest, I don't put too much faith in it...it's an interesting reference, just not iron clad.

Again, collectors are looking for a silver bullet in dating wings...

My two cents.

 

John

[Gerradtgrant]

That diagram has been around for a long time.

I have seen legitimate Meyer wings not fall within the guidance set by this chart.

To be honest, I don't put too much faith in it...it's an interesting reference, just not iron clad.

Again, collectors are looking for a silver bullet in dating wings...

My two cents.

 

John

Hi, I have a few pictured to submit and see what you think. The two pictures I have are not very good. I took them and sent them to somebody I know who is very knowledgeable in WWII wings. He instantly said Meyer wings are faked to often and didn't want to speculate anymore. If there is any chance they are real I would love to own them. If anything about these two pictures gets you excited please tell me and I will go take better more detailed pictures. Wanted a generic opinion before I drive the hour to take more. Thank You in advance.

 

Sent from my m8wl using Tapatalk

 

 

[pfrost]

There is probably nothing wrong with either those wings. The 3 incher is a NS Meyer wing but is right as rain. The 2 incher is a "Bell pattern" wing.

 

Patrick

[Gerradtgrant]

There is probably nothing wrong with either those wings.  The 3 incher is a NS Meyer wing but is right as rain.  The 2 incher is a "Bell pattern" wing.

 

Patrick

I didn't assume the 2in was a ns Meyer it doesn't have any maker marks. And rough idea on value as I don't want to over pay? Or is it safer if I run and never look back?

 

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[pfrost]

Value is relative, but if they price is shown on those cards, you should run away. NS Meyer wings are never going to command great value anyway and with patience you will find them much cheaper. I wouldn't pay more than 40-50$ for the 3 inch NS Meyer navigator wing and probably not more than $25 for the 2 inch wings. They aren't that rare.

 

It just depends on how badly you want them.

[pfrost]

not associated with this auction at all, but here is one for about $55. Make an offer or wait and see if you can find one cheaper.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sterling-Silver-US-AIR-FORCE-NAVIGATOR-WINGS-badge-pin-full-size-/262530086474?hash=item3d2003364a:g:G7UAAOSwqfNXi4Iy

 

and the 2incher for about 30$

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sterling-Silver-WWII-U-S-Army-Flight-Navigator-Wings-Badge-2-1-8-Long-/122052240731?hash=item1c6ae1655b:g:CdUAAOSw0fhXkBY2

[Gerradtgrant]

not associated with this auction at all, but here is one for about $55.  Make an offer or wait and see if you can find one cheaper.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sterling-Silver-US-AIR-FORCE-NAVIGATOR-WINGS-badge-pin-full-size-/262530086474?hash=item3d2003364a:g:G7UAAOSwqfNXi4Iy

 

and the 2incher for about 30$

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sterling-Silver-WWII-U-S-Army-Flight-Navigator-Wings-Badge-2-1-8-Long-/122052240731?hash=item1c6ae1655b:g:CdUAAOSw0fhXkBY2

Thank You for your help. I want one but not that badly. I will look around and patiently wait to snipe one at a much lower price.

 

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[pfrost]

That is a good strategy.

[bschwartz]

That diagram has been around for a long time.

I have seen legitimate Meyer wings not fall within the guidance set by this chart.

To be honest, I don't put too much faith in it...it's an interesting reference, just not iron clad.

Again, collectors are looking for a silver bullet in dating wings...

My two cents.

 

John

 

Bingo. Totally agree John. I've seen many wings that are vet owned that don't agree with that chart at all. It's a good chart to show the different types of marks that Meyer used but I wouldn't rely on the associated dates. Not trying to ding whoever created it I just have seen too many things that don't fit the dates.

[The Rooster]

Greetings all,

Here are two balloon pilot wings from ebay at vastly different prices.

Opinions please.

Thank you in advance to all!

[The Rooster]

And the backs

[268th C.A.]

From the lack of feathering on these wings and the bottom basket....I dont like them, but that's my opinion.

[mghcal]

Not good. See the flaw in the right side on the front? It's like a circular indentation? All of the repros have that is what I was told.

[The Rooster]

I also noticed that the tarnishing on the front is in almost the same places........ and on the back. The same half indented Sterling hallmark in the same spot.

No solder puddles under the pins...

[rathbonemuseum.com]

No good

[Costa]

don't like either. saw them and passed

[rustywings]

No good, times two...

[B-17Guy]

Someone once said its easy to join an avalanche, lol.

Really easy here, both wing badges bad.

Personally, I went straight to the back of the wings.

Sterling marks are typical of the style seen on repros and findings, specifically the pin bases of both are also typical of the those seen on repros or restrikes.

Never even got the front of the badges.

 

John

[The Rooster]

Thank you one and all. This forum is great! And you all are a great bunch of folks!

Its great to have a resource like this one to avoid making very expensive or even

not so expensive mistakes when purchasing a wing. I hope nobody gets suckered by the 450 dollar wing.

Now... like Lowell Thomas used to say........"Here's the rest of the story."

Im the sucker that bought the 75.00 dollar wing. LMAO at myself. Auction was ending and lol I got it.

Then I checked it out.

Jump decision gone wrong. Lesson learned. Let the buyer beware.

Wing has been sent...... But.Here's the rest of the story

 

The owner is being gracious enough to take it back if I dont want it.

So not a total loss.

I am learning. like usual... The hard way... lol

Great weekend everyone.