INFO REQ: Question about the orientation of the Tank Corps patch

[mccooper]

Would appreciate your input on the design of the tank corps patch. According to my book on WWI patches - "Shoulder Sleeve Insignia of the AEF 1918-1919 Authorized by Approval of GHQ AEF" from Schiffer- the original triangle design calls for yellow on top, red to left (as viewing the patch) and blue to right. Yet, I see on a military history site that the Patton-designed patch was blue left, red right. Most of the WWI patches I have seen are red left, blue right. I passed up a WWI uniform on eBay because the patch was blue left. Advance to WWII, and it appears that the patch is now - as a standard - blue left, red right. That was the patch design when I did my basic at Ft. Knox in 1959.

 

Call me confused! Can anyone sort out this dichotomy for me? Would like at add a correct WWI tank uniform to my collection. Also if red left is correct, when did the change take place? Thank you for your help.

 

mccooper

[phillock]

Hi there Mccooper

 

As you pointed out Ross Ford's book is based on authorized insignia GHQ AEF , so to answer your first question what to use for WWI uniform red to left Blue right.However there were reversed colours used , like a lot of WWI patches this could of come down to Battalion, Company level preference who chose to have them made that way you would have to really dig into the research to find out why it was reversed. Either way both variations are legit as long as you get the correct WWI era construction 1918-22.

As for the reversed colours from WWII , I have a photocopy of the OQMC dated 2-8-41 which shows the colours Blue right and red left again pure speculation maybe it suited better combination Cavalry-Infantry-Artillery. This could of been revised from 1922 but I don't have that info.

 

 

Phill

[mccooper]

Phil-

 

Thanks for your very helpful information. Seems like a case of ".....when all else fails, read the instructions!" Interesting what you say about the WWII model - don't believe everything you read. Right? All the best,

 

mccooper

[jagjetta]

Would appreciate your input on the design of the tank corps patch. According to my book on WWI patches - "Shoulder Sleeve Insignia of the AEF 1918-1919 Authorized by Approval of GHQ AEF" from Schiffer- the original triangle design calls for yellow on top, red to left (as viewing the patch) and blue to right. Yet, I see on a military history site that the Patton-designed patch was blue left, red right. Most of the WWI patches I have seen are red left, blue right. I passed up a WWI uniform on eBay because the patch was blue left. Advance to WWII, and it appears that the patch is now - as a standard - blue left, red right. That was the patch design when I did my basic at Ft. Knox in 1959.

 

Call me confused! Can anyone sort out this dichotomy for me? Would like at add a correct WWI tank uniform to my collection. Also if red left is correct, when did the change take place? Thank you for your help.

 

mccooper

 

Mccooper:

Good question! I have collected Tank Corps material for many years, and haven't paid too much attention to the color arrangement of the SSI--probably because I have seen all sorts! I took a walk around my office just now and counted the Tank Corps patches on named uniforms that i have displayed:

 

11 Total:

8 have red to the left

2 have blue to the left (one on a 302nd Bn Sergeant's tunic, the other on a 301st Tank Bn Captain's uniform)

1 has no SSI (301st Tank officer with just tabs).

 

Looking at painted helmets, i noticed a few oddballs:

9 Total with Tank Corps SSI:

6 with red to the left

1 with blue to the left (330th Tank Bn)

1 with blue to the left, red on top

1 with blue on top

 

The thing to remember is that the concept of SSIs was pretty fresh. Not everyone was as careful in manufacturing as they are today. That is what makes collecting early SSIs rather thrilling--the variety of construction that found its way to the soldier's uniforms.

 

Treat 'em rough!

 

John

[mccooper]

Hi, John-

 

Thanks for your illuminating response! Based on your impressive collection, we have a starting % of the red-blue vs. blue-red question. Interestingly enough, the blue-red patch I first saw on army.mil was attributed to a Patton design, and worn by Sgt. H. E. Record of the 301st Tank Battalion. That sure coincides with your report. Add 302 and we have a possible identified variant. The information received here will help me in my quest for a good WWI tank corps uniform for my collection. And, I sure agree with you as to the interest in the WWI SSIs - and uniforms. There is a look - and romance - about them that makes for a great collection and display.

 

FYI - I have focused on Italy, North Russia and Siberia, but am expanding my collection to include representative pieces from other groups, both battle and support. Thanks again for writing; all the best,

 

mccooper

[jagjetta]

Hi, John-

 

Thanks for your illuminating response! Based on your impressive collection, we have a starting % of the red-blue vs. blue-red question. Interestingly enough, the blue-red patch I first saw on army.mil was attributed to a Patton design, and worn by Sgt. H. E. Record of the 301st Tank Battalion. That sure coincides with your report. Add 302 and we have a possible identified variant. The information received here will help me in my quest for a good WWI tank corps uniform for my collection. And, I sure agree with you as to the interest in the WWI SSIs - and uniforms. There is a look - and romance - about them that makes for a great collection and display.

 

FYI - I have focused on Italy, North Russia and Siberia, but am expanding my collection to include representative pieces from other groups, both battle and support. Thanks again for writing; all the best,

 

mccooper

 

 

I wouldn't call it an "impressive collection"--there are far more impressive. It's just "focused." Maybe a tad, "obsessive."

 

In any case, I wouldn't risk particular battalion affiliations with any of the variants--that is, in my humble opinion, reading FAR too much into it. They are all just "Tank Corps" insignia constructed by many hands.

 

FYI, the caption on the ARmymil image of Sgt. H. E. Record's patch is rather poorly written ( http://www.army.mil/article/2413/The_Birth_of_Armored_Forces/ ). While the attribution to Record is accurate, the "designed by Patton" does not apply to this specific patch, though the caption tends to leave the reader believing that! Whereas Patton submitted the original design of the patch we know today, the original sample is on display at the Patton Museum in Fort Knox, KY. Picture of the original "Patton" patch attached.

 

 

In his MA thesis, Dale WIlson (Author of Treat 'em Rough! The Birth of American Armor," states:

 

"At one point recalled Second Lieutenant Will G. Robinson, Patton, inspired by soldiers of the 82nd Infantry Division he had seen sporting shoulder patches, challenged the officers of the tank center to design one. "I want you officers to devote one evening to something constructive," Robinson later quoted Patton. "I want a shoulder insignia. We claim to have the firepower of artillery, the mobility of cavalry. and the ability to hold ground of the infantry, so whatever you come up with it must have red, yellow, and blue in it.

 

Robinson and his roommate spent the rest of the evening with crayons "I had liberated in front of the fire place" figuring out a design. They decided on a "pyramid of power but had a helI of a time" dividing it into the three colors. They finally drew three lines terminating in the center. The next morning, Patton adopted their design and gave Robinson a $100 bill and sent him into Langres to get as many patches made as possible by Retreat. Robinson bought felt in the three colors and went to a hat and cap shop to have the patches sewn. He returned to camp with about 300 patches and time to spare. "Patton was tickled about it. If there was anything he wanted, it was to make the Tank Corps tougher than the Marines and more spectacular than the Matterhorn. That triangle was the first step."

 

 

As for you areas of focus, WOW! Sounds like you have a great collection! You hit on some of the "Doughboy High Points" in that list.

 

Treat 'em rough,

 

John

[phillock]

Gidday John

 

Appreciate the indepth discussion ,would like to find out what the first 300 looked like ie was it Red v Blue or vice versa also were they felt or Melton wool ($$$$) . The reason why I ask and with your help , hopefully mccooper can get a legit WWI era patch 1918-22 period and not a 1930's or worse an expensive fake or repro. With the prices being charged these days you have to be 110%

 

I copied the Sgt Harry E Record SSI, to me this is wool on wool, note the weave on the blue. I will confirm later.

 

I was reading A Co Tank 301st Bn had some connection with the NZ Division outside of Jolimetz , Mormal forest and Le Quesnoy re below.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/phish4rob/5500630310/in/photostream/lightbox/

 

 

Both you guys have hit the Doughboy high points , thanks for the great discussion and keep us informed

 

Phill

 

 

 

[mccooper]

John-

 

Many thanks for your clarification of the patch design as found on army.mil. What you show for the Patton original coincides with the information I found in the Schiffer reprint of the original book on SSIs. Both the design painting and the depiction of General Orders #25, 17 December 1918, show red left. But the blue left is correct vis a' vis what Sgt. Record wore. So, the plot thickens - sort of. And thanks also for the paragraphs on Patton and the design. Interesting! I look forward to the hunt armed with greater - and more accurate - information.

 

mccooper

[mccooper]

Phill-

 

Thanks again for your input - and encouragement! Will study these SSIs more closely now, and look for attribution as well.

 

mccooper

[Wharfmaster]

Medal

[Eric]

I have a ww1 tank corps jacket with the red on the left and blue on the right.

[mccooper]

wharfmaster-

 

Many thanks for the picture of the Association medal. I have added that pic to my files as additional evidence of the color pattern. All the best,

 

mccooper

[mccooper]

Eric-

 

Thank you for the information. I have also checked on sold tunics, and the preponderance of what I saw are red-blue, with a few blue-red. All the best,

 

mccooper

[mccooper]

John-

 

Thanks for the reference to the Wilson thesis. Found a copy - great reading. What a job Patton did!

 

mccooper

[Eric]

Also noticed this one on ebay.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=390538492569&alt=web

[mccooper]

Eric-

 

Thanks. Question: is the tank corps patch an equilateral triangle? If so, the eBay vendor could have photographed it incorrectly. I do not have one to measure, and do not know.

 

mccooper

[jagjetta]

Eric-

 

Thanks. Question: is the tank corps patch an equilateral triangle? If so, the eBay vendor could have photographed it incorrectly. I do not have one to measure, and do not know.

 

mccooper

 

 

The SSI submitted for the Tank Corps on December 19, 1918, called for a a triangle 2.5" on each of three sides.

 

In my humble opinion, there is more than just the angle of photography that falls into question on the ebay listing.

 

If you are looking for an affordable, original example, I noticed two of them on Dan Griffin's site just this morning.

 

FWIW,

JAG

[mccooper]

JAG-

 

Thanks for the confirmation of the triangle configuration - needed that. Agree with your observations, and did check Dan Griffin's site as well for further reference. Still looking for a good patch with uniform attached at this point.

 

mccooper