How date a Schlueter Shell?

[Jamecharles]

Hi! here a big question (to me )...

i've found a Schlueter shell in great condiction but how can i date it?? can i use the table of date of the mc. cord shell ?

 

my shell is marked ''S'' and ''346A''

if i use the table of Mc. cord it would be date in late 1942....but can't be possible becouse it don't have the fixed bail....

 

the liner is a Westinghouse in poor condiction with a ID painted in: RA12325886 -

And named FLOYD B C I

[GI 44]

I'm not sure you could use a similar method on Schlueter M1s. To be honest I don't think this table, published in the latest M1 helmet book by the two French authors, is very well researched. For example I have a mint example of one of the earliest production M1s, with cast buckle and two tone chinstraps. The heat lot number in it is '51B 2'. I have a mid-war fixed bail with flat stamped steel buckle and brass J hook '63B'. To start with both of these helmets do not adhere to their numbering convention and were made roughly two years apart, yet by their system, the second would have been made one month after the first.

 

Next two examples are firstly an early war brass stamped raised buckle fixed bail, heat lot '562B' and secondly a later fixed bail with flat stamped brass buckle, heat lot '368A'. According to their table the second and third digits correspond to the calendar month they were made. I believe there isn't a 62nd or 68th month in the year, even during WW2. It would also put the flat stamped buckle in the 300 series at an earlier manufacture date of 1942 than the brass raised bar buckle in the 500 series of 1943.

 

Other heat lot numbers I have among my McCord fixed bales are '776B', '328A', '614', '223C', '366A' and so on. None of these fit into their chart and all a randomly scattered among early raised bar buckle and flat stamped buckle fixed bales. There might well be a method of dating M1 steel shells by the heat lot number, but it seems the authors research is limited and incorrect. I'm not meaning to lambaste their efforts but their are some other errors I have noticed in the book. One that immediately comes to mind is their info on which paint types were used by different liner manufacturers. They list Inland as only using the textured matt OD paint. All three of my Inland liners have the earlier smooth darker green OD. One is the earliest Inland para liner with the nickel plated chinstrap female popper studs, one is a transitional HBT with poppers for the rayon sweatband and third a regular HBT with early wire buckle sweatband. Their research seems incomplete in a few areas and incorrect in others.

 

Back to your question though, trying to pin an M1s production to specific month within a specific year is a fruitless task. As you correctly stated a swivel bail couldn't have been made in 1942. The first Schlueter swivel bales turned up late in 1943. These would have been stainless steel rimmed (shiny) with a front seam. Around mid-late 1944 there is the transition period when front and rear seam and stainless and manganese steel rimmed M1s were in production. By roughly late 1944 front seams were a thing of the past and by the end of the war manganese rear seamed M1s were the norm.

 

If you can, post photos. Then people can give you a better idea of what you have and if you have an untouched wartime M1, post war repaint or whatever.

[Bugme]

The only thing I can add to GI44's answer to you is that no matter what year a Schlueter was made, it was made during the war. Schlueter was not involved in the production of post war helmets. So, even a ream seam Schuelter is a legitimate WWII era helmet. Also, I'm in total agreement with the dating table, I think it's a bunch of poorly researched material mixed with a lot of wishful thinking.

[gecko NZ]

so general consensus is that if you want a WW2 helmet with no ifs get a Schlueter or a fixed bail mcCord?

[earlymb]

A front seam is also indicative of WWII production.

 

Greetz

 

David

[Bugme]

so general consensus is that if you want a WW2 helmet with no ifs get a Schlueter or a fixed bail mcCord?

 

Or, a swivel loop(bail) front seam McCord.

[gecko NZ]

ive got a swivel bail front stainless seam McCord, but its got nam straps and silica texture.

[Bugme]

ive got a swivel bail front stainless seam McCord, but its got nam straps and silica texture.

WWII Manufacture and then repainted and refitted for Vietnam. I've got a few of these myself.

[earlymb]

ive got a swivel bail front stainless seam McCord, but its got nam straps and silica texture.

 

Nothing strange, just a WWII-made helmet re-issued later on. The chinstraps and paint are depot applied modifications.

 

Greetz

 

David

[Jamecharles]

Yeah here the photos

 

 

[Jamecharles]

[Jamecharles]

[GI 44]

The shell could have been made any time after late 1944. I'd hazzard a guess at late 1944 pre 1945. There seems to be a large cross over period of the different rim types at the end of the war. It has OD7 chinstraps, typical of the last wartime M1s. It also has the original paint and cork.

 

The liner could have been made any time from early-mid 1944. It's the last pattern of wartime liner with blackened brass A washers. The liner has seen post war use and repaints and I doubt it original to the shell. The RA prefix to the serial number is unusual and not typical of wartime serial numbers. I would say it's from a post war owner.

[Rattle]

Floyd, according to his ASN, enlisted between 1949 and 1951.

 

Regards,

Stephan

[Jamecharles]

THANKS! so the liner was reused between 1949 and -51

and the helmet could be 1944, anyway no way to date exaclty a shell except for the classic particulars (fixed or not bail , front or not seam and so on)

[ccmax]

In my experience the chin strap fittings are not an accurate way to date a helmet shell. I have swivel bail helmets with early brass chin strap buckles and fixed bails with plain steel stamped chin strap fittings.

[glenm]

I agree on that last one - going by the range of WWII-used chinstrap fittings isn't a good way of dating production.

 

Heat/batch stamps ARE an accurate way of dating production of an item. That's a given - and they'll be sequential as well. You do NOT assign random numbers to batches - that would be insane.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

[rocketscientist]

According to Chris Arnold's "Steel Pots", WW2 helmets that were reconditioned after the war were provided with swivel bales (if the chinstrap loops were damaged and had to be replaced). If this is the case, a considerable number of helmets showing front seam and hinged loops might have shells heat-stamps before Oct.1943. What do you think?

 

Another question: do Schlueter' shells with rear seam exist?

 

cheers

sergio

[Got da Penny]

Another question: do Schlueter' shells with rear seam exist?

 

Sergio, Yes they do. I have had a few of these over the years.

 

Carey

[rocketscientist]

Carey,

 

thanks for your answer.

Therefore, since I understand that all Schlueter' shells are definitely WW2, I have got something new to chase for my collection....

 

ciao.

[Hill 84]

../.. I don't think this table, published in the latest M1 helmet book by the two French authors, is very well researched. ../..

Next two examples are firstly an early war brass stamped raised buckle fixed bail, heat lot '562B' and secondly a later fixed bail with flat stamped brass buckle, heat lot '368A'. According to their table the second and third digits correspond to the calendar month they were made. I believe there isn't a 62nd or 68th month in the year, even during WW2. It would also put the flat stamped buckle in the 300 series at an earlier manufacture date of 1942 than the brass raised bar buckle in the 500 series of 1943.

 

Dear GI 44,

 

I am sorry but I am sure we didn't have read the same book; and believe me I have at least read "Helmets of the ETO" several times.

IT IS NEVER MENTION IN THIS BOOK THAT THE DIGITS OF HEAT LOT ARE CORRESPONDING TO MONTH OF PRODUCTION. The chart shows the heatcodes were attributed chronologically during the years of production, and was built and verified with about a thousand examples of M1 helmets !

 

I would like to thank you to confirm through the example of your "fixed bail with flat stamped brass buckle, heat lot 368A" that this kind of buckle appeared more early in the war than the other publications on helmets mention. If of course they are commonly observed on late war helmets it is just because they were not long time produced in 1942 and were produced again in 1944 and on in an imcomparable proportion. Your 368A helmet is rarer and earlier than a your 562B brass stamped raised buckle fixed bail one. Isn't a good news!?

 

Hill 84.