BROBS Posted January 17, 2015 Share #26 Posted January 17, 2015 So what's the downside to a C&R FFL because I can't figure one out..... -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longbranch Posted January 17, 2015 Share #27 Posted January 17, 2015 Some downsides to the C&R: -You have to keep records of all firearm transactions you make while you are holding your C&R FFL license, even if you didn't actually "use" your C&R to complete the transaction. This includes buying and selling. If you do sell firearms, you are required to keep the name and contact information of the buyer for as long as your C&R license is in effect. You also don't want to show a consistent pattern of "selling", as that is not the intent of the C&R. - Holding a C&R FFL gives the BATFE the right to enter your home and perform an audit whenever they choose to do so for as long as the license is in effect. If your paperwork is not in order or they find some other inconsistencies, you face the possibility of being fined and/or charged with a crime. For instance, if you show signs of buying & flipping firearms for a profit, you may face federal charges for dealing firearms without the appropriate license. - Some firearms dealers will not recognize a C&R license, and will still require you as a buyer to go through the normal purchasing procedure of filling out a 4473, getting the NICS check, etc. This is largely out of ignorance on the dealer's part. I have faced this situation before, and I simply choose to take my business elsewhere. However, this does take away a bit of the advantage of having a C&R. Basically, if you are diligent, organized, follow the mandates set out under the limitations of a C&R license, and keep good records according to BATFE guidelines, a C&R license works out great. However, it's not something to "play around" with and not doing exactly what the BATFE instructs you to do can get you in big trouble. I had a C&R license for a while, and it certainly was handy. However, I got disinterested in firearms collecting when all of the neat old WWI and WW2 era rifles started drying up on the surplus market. So when it came time to renew my C&R, I didn't even bother. Haven't regretted it. I know it's fantastic for people who are highly active in firearms collecting, and it's great they have the option to get one. Plus, it's also a handy thing to have if you are looking to purchase something from the CMP, as it satisfies one of their requirements for being eligible to purchase from them. If you are a serious collector and are looking to purchase a fairly substantial number of C&R eligible firearms, it may be an option worth considering. If you only have a very casual interest in C&R firearms, and are looking to get 2 or 3 examples, I wouldn't even bother with the C&R license. Especially since most FFL dealers charge only about $10-$30 for a transfer (which is actually an incredibly simple process). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirt Detective Posted January 17, 2015 Share #28 Posted January 17, 2015 Good info..thanks longbranch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 17, 2015 Share #29 Posted January 17, 2015 So what's the downside to a C&R FFL because I can't figure one out..... -Brian In addition to what longbranch said above, if you are a Californian (and we do have a few on this forum...) you additionally need a Certificate of Eligibility (~$70 a year, plus Livescan fees, which were $80 when I had mine done) in order to JUST buy longarms with the C&R. Handguns are still required to go through a dealer, no matter what, so you're still out $35 for each transfer fee when you buy them (plus the additional $$ to ship the gun to them and have them receive it...most around here charge $30-$60 for that, plus between $50 and $60 for FedEx shipping...) So unless you're buying more than five or six rifles per year...it's not worth the money to have a C&R, especially with all of the other requirements and liabilities that come with it. Easier to just pay $35 at the dealer of choice and call it a day... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted January 17, 2015 Share #30 Posted January 17, 2015 Well that's just ridiculous about California, but I would expect no less from that state. So yes, if you live in Cali... don't get one because they won't honor your rights. But anywhere else besides a totalitarian state it's worth it IMO. As for the ATF entering your home, that is absolutely not true. They do have the right to inspect your collection and bound book, but not enter your home as stated. This is where an 03FFL and a full on FFL for dealing differ. If you are engaged in business they can enter and inspect whenever, but as a collector that is not true. If they did want to check they can arrange a time and you can meet them, and show that your collection and bound book is in order. I can't imagine they would randomly do this... I would think you would need to be suspected of buying/selling as a dealer for this to be an issue.. though if they want to inspect my stuff, go right ahead! As for it not being worth it.. It costs $30 for three years. My dealer charges $20 for a transfer. So I would only need to buy two firearms within 3 years for it to pay for itself, not to mention the discounts at dealers like Brownells, SOG, etc etc. So I'm not really understanding where you are saying it's only worth it if you get 2+ firearms per year?? Anyways it's been my experience that a C&R FFL is highly "worth it".. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronny67 Posted January 17, 2015 Share #31 Posted January 17, 2015 I used to work at UPS. Packages are treated pretty rough sometimes. I would take it home on the plane.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longbranch Posted January 18, 2015 Share #32 Posted January 18, 2015 As for the ATF entering your home, that is absolutely not true. They do have the right to inspect your collection and bound book, but not enter your home as stated. This is where an 03FFL and a full on FFL for dealing differ. If you are engaged in business they can enter and inspect whenever, but as a collector that is not true. If they did want to check they can arrange a time and you can meet them, and show that your collection and bound book is in order. I can't imagine they would randomly do this... I would think you would need to be suspected of buying/selling as a dealer for this to be an issue.. though if they want to inspect my stuff, go right ahead! As for it not being worth it.. It costs $30 for three years. My dealer charges $20 for a transfer. So I would only need to buy two firearms within 3 years for it to pay for itself, not to mention the discounts at dealers like Brownells, SOG, etc etc. So I'm not really understanding where you are saying it's only worth it if you get 2+ firearms per year?? Anyways it's been my experience that a C&R FFL is highly "worth it".. -Brian Brian, The "worth" of a C&R is very much a personal matter. It's great that you have found it of such value. However, as I stated, I found I wasn't getting much value out of it as time went on. In fact, these days I'm the kind of guy that goes to a gun show and walks out with a vintage camera... or something else not in any way gun related. How many guns have I purchased in the last 2-3 years at a gun show? ZERO. You are correct that the BATFE will typically give a C&R holder a heads up if they have been chosen for an audit. Furthermore, an audit of a C&R license holder is a fairly rare event (I was never audited while I held mine, and several people I know who have a C&R have never been audited). After your comments I double checked the audit process for C&R license holders, and you are correct that the BATFE does not get an "open door" into your home in the case of an audit. In this matter I was incorrect. Nonetheless, they can mandate to inspect your documention (aka the "bound book") and firearms collection either in your home or at the nearest BATFE office. Obviously, if you have a fairly extensive collection, transporting everything to a BATFE office wouldn't be feasible. Just so you know, the BATFE can most certainly do random audits if they choose to do so. As I said, as long as they follow the laws, rules, and regulations, and keep the documentation in good order and up to date, a C&R holder shouldn't ever have a problem. The main point I was making when discussing the C&R FFL is that it isn't just a simple way to avoid transfer fees, and indeed comes with its own set of federally enforced stipulations. I think you are defining "worth" solely as "monetary savings" in regards to having a C&R versus paying an FFL their transfer fee. For as much as I purchase C&R eligible firearms, I'd rather just pay the $10 transfers that are available at a few local firearms dealers. It's simply a matter of a C&R license not being "worth it" to ME. You feel otherwise, and greatly value the savings that a C&R license offers you. That's the beauty of freedom of choice. In the end, we are both satisfied with our decisions, which are both suited to fit our particular needs/interests. Isn't freedom great? Thank you for correcting me where I erred, and happy collecting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted January 18, 2015 Share #33 Posted January 18, 2015 Longbranch, I didn't mean to sound argumentative, just showing my perspective of worth... and correcting the statement about them being able to enter your home randomly. I do know that they can randomly do audits, I was just saying that I would think it a rare occurrence unless you are someone who is dealing in firearms for profit. Again, not saying that you should get one if you don't want to! just offering my perspective... and sorry if it came off the wrong way. it can be hard to interpret tone via the internet. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarheeltim Posted January 18, 2015 Share #34 Posted January 18, 2015 Good info for future reference - thanks for providing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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