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SOME NEW RATINGS. EARLY ONES


navyman
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Thanks Steve, at first when I first seen this Gun captain rate I thought it maybe for a childs or middy uniform. But then I seen how well the eagle and anchor insignia are done. Think by hand too. Also the gold chevrons that were in regs in 1880's,(Thanks Justin B ) Its very well done and better looking in hand.

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Not saying it's not real but that pre97 is the oddest I have ever seen between the eagle, form of the anchor and the fact that the chevrons are not sewn together is peculiar but they were all hand made so who knows?

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Not saying it's not real but that pre97 is the oddest I have ever seen between the eagle, form of the anchor and the fact that the chevrons are not sewn together is peculiar but they were all hand made so who knows?

I agree it is odd and I think around 1897 they went with the eagle that looks more of the 1905 style. Maybe this guy like this style better when he had this made? But the chevrons are sewn like the 1897 style chevrons would be. I think from what pictures I have seen of gold chevrons of this era they were similar. The gun captain came out in 1897. So I am guessing this is around there, pre 1900. You would think there would be a wear out period when the 1897 style came out. It has a lot of age and think its good.

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Not saying it's not real or was not worn, just odd. And this is comming from a guy who wore the, I'm sorry, the oddest HT3 crow ever and was never gigged on it.

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I agree it is different and at first glance thought it may be a midday rate. But the reasons I stated earlier change my opinion. It actually looks better in hand.

I have a Ww2 era bullion rate coming also. The crow is a little different as well. Will post that one under the spectacular bullion rates thread.

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Not saying it's not real or was not worn, just odd.

 

I agree with topdcnut on this one.

 

While I agree this rate is old, I am having trouble with the gun captain identification. What this does remind me of, is a bullion rate from the Naval Academy, which several 1950's/60's versions are pictured below. However, I am not saying that is what it is, because I just don't know.

 

I suspect an answer is out there.......

 

6501929_4_l.jpg

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I agree with topdcnut on this one.

 

While I agree this rate is old, I am having trouble with the gun captain identification. What this does remind me of, is a bullion rate from the Naval Academy, which several 1950's/60's versions are pictured below. However, I am not saying that is what it is, because I just don't know.

 

I suspect an answer is out there.......

 

6501929_4_l.jpg

On those midshipmen rates the eagles feet are on on the anchor. Also there is no perch that the eagle is on like the patch I shown. The rate is actually pretty close to another gun captain I have, anchor wise.

post-2501-0-90668800-1420541124.jpg post-2501-0-87885200-1420541157.jpg

Also no loop on the top of anchor.I think the two anchor insignia without the eagle that you shown are cadet insignia, but they do have the loop they lack the eagle. It looks like a rating badge and not midshipman insignia to me. That's my opinion though.

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I agree it is an odd piece, but I do think it is USN, and it was a transitional time so oddities are somewhat to be expected. The eagle doesn't look like the "regulation" 1894 type, but that "flat wing" style is not too uncommon for that period. Remember rating badges could still be hand made by sailors back then, and the embroidery style looks consistent with other 1890s badges I've seen.

 

If it was another specialty mark, I'd say definitely USN. The Gun Captain anchor confuses the issue, though, because ( a ) it was a short-lived and rare navy rate and ( b ) it's somewhat generic and similar to midshipman or possibly civilian badges. Does anyone know for sure when USNA midshipman POs started wearing eagle/chevron sleeve insignia?

 

Just thinking aloud, but Gun Captain was a new rate; a veteran sailor would have had to come from another rating. Is there any sign that a different specialty mark was picked out? The expensive gold lace could have been transplanted from an older badge, too, I guess, which might also help explain the somewhat "1886/1894 hybrid" appearance.

 

Anyway, a great conversation starter, thanks for posting!

 

Justin B.

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I agree it is an odd piece, but I do think it is USN, and it was a transitional time so oddities are somewhat to be expected. The eagle doesn't look like the "regulation" 1894 type, but that "flat wing" style is not too uncommon for that period. Remember rating badges could still be hand made by sailors back then, and the embroidery style looks consistent with other 1890s badges I've seen.

 

If it was another specialty mark, I'd say definitely USN. The Gun Captain anchor confuses the issue, though, because ( a ) it was a short-lived and rare navy rate and ( b ) it's somewhat generic and similar to midshipman or possibly civilian badges. Does anyone know for sure when USNA midshipman POs started wearing eagle/chevron sleeve insignia?

 

Just thinking aloud, but Gun Captain was a new rate; a veteran sailor would have had to come from another rating. Is there any sign that a different specialty mark was picked out? The expensive gold lace could have been transplanted from an older badge, too, I guess, which might also help explain the somewhat "1886/1894 hybrid" appearance.

 

Anyway, a great conversation starter, thanks for posting!

 

Justin B.

I agree and you point out some good points. I don't see no pinholes around the anchor or signs of another insignia being there. This is my thinking on this rate. I think he made gun captain and had this made, he may of like this style eagle better than the new style that came out in 1897. But we will never know. Also would make sense with the good conduct chevrons being on there too. I never seen a middy with gold lace chevrons but that doesn't mean it was not done.

Like you said its a conversation piece. The quality on the hand embroider is excellent. This was on a uniform at one time or possibly middy . Also the material use may play a role.

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On those midshipmen rates the eagles feet are on on the anchor. Also there is no perch that the eagle is on like the patch I shown. The rate is actually pretty close to another gun captain I have, anchor wise.

 

Also no loop on the top of anchor.I think the two anchor insignia without the eagle that you shown are cadet insignia, but they do have the loop they lack the eagle. It looks like a rating badge and not midshipman insignia to me. That's my opinion though.

 

I was not saying that this rate was a midshipmen rate, but trying to bring the possibility it might be something other than a gun captain into the discussion. The points you bring up regarding a comparison to a midshipmen rate are valid, but I think the current case for specifically identifying it as something are equally problematic.

 

One aspect that you brought up, that I think is an excellent one to consider, is the anchor. In naval insignia, the flukes, rings, crowns, ropes, and so on are not random, but follow heraldic patterns that mean something, and are different by nation.

 

I think you have done a nice job comparing the anchors. However, I think it is the same anchor on all three insignia. Since we know the 1905 Quartermaster and midshipman's rates are American, that helps us with the rate in question.

 

While it might seem I am backing up into the obvious, it is significant that the anchor on the unknown insignia exactly follows the form of the others. That attention to detail is one of the clues that often separates handmade pieces, because it matters, but not to a lady making something for her daughter's jumper.

 

I don't think this point is conclusive one way or the other, but having a correct anchor is a tough gauntlet to go through. It gets us closer, because it greatly increases the likelihood that this was a legitimately worn US naval insignia. However, in my mind, it still leaves us circling above, because we still don't have anything that confirms what the anchor represents in this combination.

 

Lastly, I am not sure if John Stacey is on the Forum, but he is both a great guy and the man on the mountain top on this one.

 

John A. Stacey

2880 Smith Point Road

Nanjemoy, MD 20662

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I agree it is an odd piece, but I do think it is USN, and it was a transitional time so oddities are somewhat to be expected. The eagle doesn't look like the "regulation" 1894 type, but that "flat wing" style is not too uncommon for that period. Remember rating badges could still be hand made by sailors back then, and the embroidery style looks consistent with other 1890s badges I've seen.

 

If it was another specialty mark, I'd say definitely USN. The Gun Captain anchor confuses the issue, though, because ( a ) it was a short-lived and rare navy rate and ( b ) it's somewhat generic and similar to midshipman or possibly civilian badges. Does anyone know for sure when USNA midshipman POs started wearing eagle/chevron sleeve insignia?

 

Just thinking aloud, but Gun Captain was a new rate; a veteran sailor would have had to come from another rating. Is there any sign that a different specialty mark was picked out? The expensive gold lace could have been transplanted from an older badge, too, I guess, which might also help explain the somewhat "1886/1894 hybrid" appearance.

 

Anyway, a great conversation starter, thanks for posting!

 

Justin B.

 

My thoughts exactly!

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I agree, I ask Dan Smith to email him a pic to him. I think he only uses a computer rarely when he is at a family members house.

 

I appreciate everyone's opinion and insight. I am a very open minded individual.

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I think he only uses a computer rarely when he is at a family members house.

Yes, I forgot about that.....he only gets on the internet at his daughter's house. I'd send him a letter.

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Yes, I forgot about that.....he only gets on the internet at his daughter's house. I'd send him a letter.

I sent it to John Stacey.

Check the eagle design in this "transition" rating badge.

-dan

post-769-0-30051200-1420589082.jpg

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I sent it to John Stacey.

Check the eagle design in this "transition" rating badge.

-dan

Excellent! It will be very interesting to hear what John says.

 

I agree that is a really interesting rate....I have seen few similar ones over the years that have been generally identified as being in the 1894-1897 time frame. However, like most rates we encounter, they were not directly attributed to anyone, so it becomes very hard to say for sure. I have always felt the lack of attribution with most pre 1900 Navy enlisted pieces has been a real problem in sorting some of these things out.....the Army guys are much luckier than we are on this count.

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Here is an interesting variety of eagles from this photo of the USS Maine CPO's mess, which the LOC dates as taken 1896. Not also that the previous style of badge is also still in use, including one that appears to have gold stripes.

 

post-3982-0-10073400-1420594177.jpg

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I do appreciate all your thoughts and opinions. I am very interested in what John thinks.

 

I just got a really nice child's set, I believe span am period and think the insignia and hat tally and lanyard use are all correct usn items from that period. I showed a few all ready to get input. You can tell by the size of the rating badge compare to the size of sleeve. Will show a sneak peak and will get more pics when this comes, high on my want list is a adult uniform of same era with rating badge. I have some ww1 era middies that use regulation insignia.

 

 

post-2501-0-93307300-1420595287.jpg

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Here is an interesting variety of eagles from this photo of the USS Maine CPO's mess, which the LOC dates as taken 1896. Not also that the previous style of badge is also still in use, including one that appears to have gold stripes.

 

attachicon.gifmaine_cpo_badges.jpg

It is very interesting that some have the old chevrons and some the 1897 style with the older eagle. I wonder if the sailors like that style better thats what they bought or made.

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I just got a really nice child's set, I believe span am period and think the insignia and hat tally and lanyard use are all correct usn items from that period. I showed a few all ready to get input. You can tell by the size of the rating badge compare to the size of sleeve. Will show a sneak peak and will get more pics when this comes, high on my want list is a adult uniform of same era with rating badge. I have some ww1 era middies that use regulation insignia.

That is one of the nicest child's sets I have ever seen....congratulations! I have a similar set that I know is Span Am era, but I think this one is nicer. And yes, from what I can see, all the goodies look regulation....and that is one hell of a rating badge!

 

Question...what ship is the tally from?

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That is one of the nicest child's sets I have ever seen....congratulations! I have a similar set that I know is Span Am era, but I think this one is nicer. And yes, from what I can see, all the goodies look regulation....and that is one hell of a rating badge!

 

Question...what ship is the tally from?

Thanks, this was not cheap but I think I did o.k. considering how much those rating badges bring. The hat has nice stitch work done to it also. What I like about this group is the picture of it being wore.

post-2501-0-39140200-1420597500.jpg

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