tarbridge Posted August 31, 2014 Share #51 Posted August 31, 2014 John H M Anderson served in WWI and at this time I can only surmise he maybe was wounded or gassed. I cannot prove this but just by seeing the emotion engraved on this Victory medal...leads me to think the War had some cause in his death 8 years later.I did find him employed in the 1920 census. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottplen Posted August 31, 2014 Share #52 Posted August 31, 2014 His stone in mount moriah cemetery Phila PA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wake1941 Posted August 31, 2014 Share #53 Posted August 31, 2014 That is awesome this is the only one I have ever seen done like this, you see something new every day on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurfreesboroMemphis Posted December 22, 2014 Share #54 Posted December 22, 2014 Does anyone have a list of all of the issued/authorized bars for the victory medals and what dates/geographic areas qualify for their wear? Hope this question is clear. Thanks. -Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnymac Posted December 22, 2014 Share #55 Posted December 22, 2014 Here is the clasps and the order in which they would have been issued: Cambrai, Somme, Defensive, Lys, Aisne, Montdidier-Noyon, Champagne-Marne, Aisne-Marne, Somme, Offensive, Oise-Aisne, Ypres-Lys, St. Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne, Vittorio-Veneto and Defensive Sector Cambrai - November 20, 1917 through December 4, 1917.Somme, Defensive - March 21, 1918 through April 6, 1918.Lys - April 9, 1918 through April 27, 1918.Aisne (on the Chemin des Dames and the northeast) - May 27, 1918 through June 5, 1918.Montdidier-Noyon - June 9, 1918 through June 13, 1918.Champagne-Marne - July 15, 1918 through July 18, 1918.Aisne-Marne - July 18, 1918 through August 6, 1918.Somme, Offensive - August 18, 1918 through November 8, 1918.Oise-Aisne - August 18, 1918 through November 11, 1918.Ypres-Lys - August 19, 1918 through November 11, 1918.St. Mihiel - September 12, 1918 through September 16, 1918.Meuse-Argonne - September 26, 1918 through November 11, 1918.Vittorio-Veneto - October 24, 1918 through November 4, 1918.Defensive Sector – November 20, 1917 through to November 11, 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted December 22, 2014 Share #56 Posted December 22, 2014 Probably more than you want to know... The U.S. Army authorized a number of clasps to be affixed to the ribbon of the WWI Victory Medal to denote service or combat in various fields or areas. A listing of the various clasps, and the dates service qualified for the specific clasp is listed below: COMBAT CLASP A Combat Clasp is denoted by having a star at either end of the bar. Also included is the number of days the particular battle lasted. and the number of KNOWN Divisions or Regiments involved. A Regiment is roughly up to 5,000 soldiers, while a Division is approximately 15,000 soldiers. This will give a rough indication of the scarcity of each Combat Clasp listed. Days of Combat = DoC Cambrai: May 20 to December 4, 1917 (198 DoC - 3 Regiments) Somme Defensive: March 21 to April 6, 1918 (16 DoC - 1 Regiment) Lys: April 9 to 27, 1918 (18 DoC - Units from 4 Divisions) Aisne: May 27 to June 5, 1918 (9 DoC - 2 Divisions) Montdidier-Noyon: June 9 to 13, 1918 (4 DoC - 1 Division) Champagne-Marne: July 18 to August 6, 1918 (19 DoC - 4 Divisions) Aisne-Marne: July 18 to August 6, 1918 (19 DoC - 8 Divisions) Somme Offensive: August 8 to November 11, 1918 (95 DoC - 3 Divisions) Oise-Aisne: August 18 to November 11, 1918 (85 DoC - 3 Divisions) Ypres-Lys: August 19 to November 11, 1918 (84 DoC - 4 Divisions) St. Mihiel: September 12 to 16, 1918 (4 DoC - 13 Divisions) Meuse-Argonne: September 26 to November 11, 1918 (46 DoC - 25 Divisions) Vittorio-Veneto: October 24 to November 4, 1918 (11 DoC - 1 Regiment) Defensive Sector: For participation in any 'minor' battle that is not honored with any of the above 'named' Combat Clasps: April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 (584 Eligible Days - Typically for 1 Day of Combat - 2 Divisions, plus anyone engaged or wounded in combat) SERVICE CLASP A Service Clasp is denoted by not having stars on the ends of the clasp. Again, the KNOWN number of eligible units are indicated). Service Clasps were given basically "for being there". England: April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 (References state ±30,100 issued) France: April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 (12 Divisions - References state ±621,000 issued) Italy: April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918 (Support units from the 83rd Division – References state ±4,800 issued) Russia: Any service in European Russia (3 Battalion to Regiment sized units from the 85th Division - References state ±9,000 issued) Siberia: Any service in Siberia or Asian Russia (Volunteers from 5 Regiments – References state ±9,000 issued) The US Selective Service Records indicate 2,810,296 individuals were inducted during WWI, of which ±62,000 served in the US Navy. As nearly 2,000,000 American servicemen in the A.E.F. (American Expeditionary Force) had reached Europe (primarily France) prior to the cessation of hostilities on November 11th, 1918, and the approximate issue of Medals with a Service Clasp (from above) was ±673,000, this means ±1,326,000 WWI Victory Medals were issued with one (or more) Combat Clasps, and ±748,000 were issued with no clasps, indicating stateside service only. Unlike the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, the U.S. Army did allow the wearing of multiple Combat Clasps. If an individual qualified to wear more than one clasp, the recipient was allowed to wear the clasp. The exception being the wearing of a Service Clasp and a Combat Clasp. A Combat Clasp is presumed to take precedence over a Service Clasp, so therefore, if anyone was authorized a Combat Clasp, they receive that instead of a Service Clasp. The most common way to upgrade to a Battle Clasp was to be awarded the Defensive Sector Clasp for being wounded. Bottom line - any offering of a multi-clasp medal with Service and Battle Clasps combined are made-up combinations. Also, the U.S. Army did not allow the wearing of multiple Service Clasps - if you were eligible for two Service Clasps, you only got to choose one for award and wearing. That leaves the question of which combination of Combat Clasps are legitimate? Not every clasp can be worn together. Some are date exclusive, especially for Infantry or Marine units - you were either at one battle, or the other. For example, you will never see an Infantry unit with the Oise-Aisne and Ypres-Lys Battle Clasps together (however an Artillery unit, which spanned both battle fronts, DID receive this unusual combination). The following is a list of the authorized clasps for the larger Army units raised during WWI. Remember to add the Defensive Sector Battle Clasp mentally to every unit authorized any Battle Clasps. If a unit was only eligible for the Defensive Sector Battle Clasp, then it will be the only clasp listed. Also remember - this is a listing of UNIT eligibility. For specific INDIVIDUALS, they would have had to participate in every specific battle honored with a Battle Clasp to earn the right to wear that clasp. With this knowledge, it is obvious that the most Battle Clasps an individual could have earned on any one medal is seven (by personnel in the 3rd Division, 6th Engineers). Realistically, anything above three Battle Clasps is an outstanding accomplishment, by WWI standards. With this list, you should have a start in identifying which unit the recipient of the medal with multiple clasps served in, as certain combinations will only be found within certain units. If a Battle or Service Clasp is UNIQUE to a unit - it will be denoted with a *U* following the name of the clasp. 1st Division Montdidier-Noyon - *U* Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 2nd Division Aisne Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 3rd Division (Most of Division - exceptions follow) Aisne Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne Meuse-Argonne 3rd Division, 3rd Ammunition Train Ineligible for Aisne 3rd Division, 3rd Field Artillery Brigade Add - St. Mihiel Ineligible for Aisne 3rd Division, 7th Machine Gun Battalion Add - St. Mihiel 3rd Division, 6th Engineers Regiment Add - St. Mihiel Add - Somme Defensive 4th Division (Most of Division - exception follows) Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 4th Division, 4th Field Artillery Brigade, 77th Field Artillery Battery Ineligible for Aisne-Marne 5th Division (Most of Division - exception follows) St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 5th Division, 5th Field Artillery Brigade Ineligible for Meuse-Argonne 6th Division Meuse-Argonne 7th Division Meuse-Argonne 8th Division No Clasps Authorized 26th Division Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 27th Division (Most of Division - exception follows) Ypres-Lys Somme Offensive 27th Division, 52nd Field Artillery Brigade Add - Meuse-Argonne Ineligible for Ypres-Lys Ineligible for Somme Offensive 28th Division (Most of Division - exception follows) Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne Oise-Aisne Meuse-Argonne 28th Division, 53rd Artillery Brigade Add - Ypres-Lys Ineligible for Champagne-Marne Ineligible for Aisne-Marne 29th Division Meuse-Argonne 30th Division Ypres-Lys Somme Offensive 31st Division France Service Clasp 32nd Division Aisne-Marne Oise-Aisne Meuse-Argonne 33rd Division (Most of Division - exception follows) Somme Offensive Meuse-Argonne 33rd Division, 58th Field Artillery Brigade Add - St. Mihiel Ineligible for Somme Offensive 34th Division France Service Clasp 35th Division (Most of Division - exception follows) Meuse-Argonne 35th Division, 60th Field Artillery and the 69th and 70th Infantry Brigades, 110th Engineers, and the 110th Field Signal and 128th Machine Gun Battalions Add - St. Mihiel 36th Division (Most of Division - exception follows) Meuse-Argonne 36th Division, 111th Engineers Add - St. Mihiel 37th Division (Most of Division - exception follows) Meuse-Argonne Ypres-Lys 37th Division, 62nd Field Artillery Brigade Ineligible for Ypres-Lys 38th Division France Service Clasp 39th Division France Service Clasp 40th Division France Service Clasp 41st Division France Service Clasp 42nd Division Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 76th Division France Service Clasp 77th Division Oise-Aisne Meuse-Argonne 78th Division Meuse-Argonne St. Mihiel 79th Division Meuse-Argonne 80th Division (Most of Division - exceptions follow) Meuse-Argonne 80th Division, 159th and 160th Infantry Brigades, 305th Engineers, and the 305th field Signal and 313th Machine Gun Battalions Add - St. Mihiel 80th Division, No Specific Unit Cited - Possibly entire Division (Reference: G.O. #75, G.H.Q., A.E.F., May 2nd, 1919) Add - Somme Offensive 81st Division Meuse-Argonne 82nd Division St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 83rd Division France Service Clasp 84th Division France Service Clasp 85th Division France Service Clasp 85th Division. 1st Battalion Russia Service Clasp 85th Division, 339th Infantry Regiment Russia Service Clasp 85th Division, 310th Engineer Train Russia Service Clasp 86th Division France Service Clasp 87th Division France Service Clasp 88th Division Meuse-Argonne 89th Division (Most of Division - exception follows) St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 89th Division, 164th Field Artillery Brigade Defensive Sector only Ineligible for St. Mihiel Ineligible for Meuse-Argonne 90th Division St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 91st Division St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne Ypres-Lys 92nd Division Meuse-Argonne 93rd Division No Clasps Authorized* (See Footnote Below) 11th Engineer Regiment Cambrai 12th Infantry Regiment (Few Volunteers) Siberia Service Clasp 12th Engineer Regiment Cambrai 13th Infantry Regiment (Many Volunteers) Siberia Service Clasp 14th Engineer Regiment Cambrai 27th Infantry Regiment Siberia Service Clasp 31st Infantry Regiment Siberia Service Clasp 62nd Infantry Regiment (Many Volunteers) Siberia Service Clasp 332nd Infantry Regiment Vittorio-Veneto - *U* 369th Infantry Regiment Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne Meuse-Argonne 370th Infantry Regiment St. Mihiel Oise-Aisne 371st Infantry Regiment Meuse-Argonne 57th Field Artillery Brigade Aisne-Marne Oise-Marne Meuse-Argonne 66th Field Artillery Brigade Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 158 Field Artillery Brigade and the 3rd Corps Artillery Park Meuse-Argonne 1st Corps Artillery Park Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne Oise-Marne Meuse-Argonne 2nd Corps Artillery Park Aisne-Marne Oise-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 4th Corps Artillery Park and the 58th Artillery, Coast Artillery Corps Defensive Sector 1st Army Artillery Park plus the 43rd, 51st, 53rd, 57th, 59th, 60th, and the 65th Artillery, Coast Artillery Corps St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 42nd Artillery, Coast Artillery Corps Champagne-Marne 44th Artillery, Coast Artillery Corps Champagne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 52nd Artillery, Coast Artillery Corps, the 1st Gas Regiment, and the 1st Battalion, Trench Artillery Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 55th and 56th Artillery, Coast Artillery Corps Oise-Marne Meuse-Argonne 2nd Cavalry Division Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 1st and 2nd Antiaircraft Battalion plus the 1st and 2nd Antiaircraft Machine Gun Battalion St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 115th and the 301st Field Signal Battalion Defensive Sector 308th Field Signal Battalion Aisne-Marne Oise-Marne Meuse-Argonne 310th Field Signal Battalion St. Mihiel 317th and the 319th Field Signal Battalion St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 318th Field Signal Battalion Somme Offensive 322nd Field Signal Battalion Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 11th Engineers (Standard Gauge RR) Lys 12th Engineers (Light RR) Somme Defensive 13th Engineers (Standard Gauge RR) plus the 115th Engineers Defensive Sector 14th Engineers (Light RR) Somme Defensive Aisne-Marne Oise-Marne Meuse-Argonne 15th Engineers (Standard Gauge RR) and the 21st Engineers (Light RR) plus Independent Engineers - 23rd (Highway), 24th (Supply & Shop), 26th (Water Supply), 28th (Quarry), 37th (Electrical & Mechanical), 56th (Searchlight), 310th, and the 602nd St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 16th Engineers (Standard Gauge RR) Lys Meuse-Argonne 22nd Engineers (Light RR) plus Independent Engineers - 25th (Construction), 27th (Mining), 114th, 603rd, and the 604th Meuse-Argonne Independent Engineers - 29th (Survey & Print) and the 40th (Camouflage) Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 301st Engineers St. Mihiel 308th Engineers Aisne-Marne Oise-Marne Meuse-Argonne 1st Pioneer Infantry Aisne-Marne Oise-Aisne Meuse-Argonne 3rd, 52nd, 54th, 56th, 59th, 802nd, 805th, 806th, 807th, and the 808th Pioneer Infantry Meuse-Argonne 51st Pioneer Infantry St. Mihiel 53rd Pioneer Infantry St. Mihiel Meuse Argonne 803rd and the 804th Pioneer Infantry Defensive Sector 51st, 409th, 417th, and the 419th Telegraph Battalion Defensive Sector 52nd Telegraph Battalion Aisne-Marne Oise-Marne Meuse-Argonne 55th and the 401st Telegraph Battalion St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 406th and the 411th Telegraph Battalion Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 412th Telegraph Battalion Ypres-Lys Somme Offensive 301st Battalion, Tank Corps Somme Offensive 344th and the 345th Battalion, Tank Corps St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 1st Corps Observation Group (Most of Group - exception follows) Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 1st Corps Observation Group, 50th Squadron Ineligible for Champagne-Marne Ineligible for Aisne-Marne 3rd Corps Observation Group (Most of Group - exceptions follow) Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 3rd Corps Observation Group, 90th Squadron Ineligible for Champagne-Marne Ineligible for Aisne-Marne 3rd Corps Observation Group, 199th Squadron Ineligible for Champagne-Marne Ineligible for Aisne-Marne Ineligible for St. Mihiel 4th Corps Observation Group (Most of Group - exception follows) St. Mihiel 4th Corps Observation Group, 168th Squadron Defensive Sector Only Ineligible for St. Mihiel 5th Corps Observation Group plus 1st Army Observation Group (Most of Group - exception follows) and the 1st Day Bombardment Group (Most of Group - exception follows) St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 1st Army Observation Group, 186th Squadron and the 1st Day Bombardment Group, 166th Squadron Ineligible for St. Mihiel 6th and 7th Corps Observation Group, plus the 2nd Day Bombardment Group Defensive Sector 1st Pursuit Group (Most of Group - exceptions follow) Champagne-Marne Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 1st Pursuit Group, 185th Squadron Ineligible for Champagne-Marne Ineligible for Aisne-Marne Ineligible for St. Mihiel 1st Pursuit Group, 4th Air Park Ineligible for Champagne-Marne Ineligible for Aisne-Marne 2nd Pursuit Group (Most of Group - exceptions follow) St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 2nd Pursuit Group, 22nd Squadron Add - Somme Defensive 2nd Pursuit Group, 5th Air Park Ineligible for St. Mihiel 3rd Pursuit Group (Most of Group - exception follows) St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 3rd Pursuit Group. 28th Squadron Add - Somme Defensive Add – Lys 4th Pursuit Group (Most of Group - exceptions follow) Somme Defensive Somme Offensive 4th Pursuit Group, 141st Squadron and the 6th Air Park Defensive Sector only Ineligible for Somme Defensive Ineligible for Somme Offensive 1st Corps Balloon Group (Most of Group - exceptions follow) Aisne-Marne St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 1st Corps Balloon Group, 2nd Balloon Company Add - Champagne-Marne 1st Corps Balloon Group, 5th Balloon Company Ineligible for Aisne-Marne 3rd Corps Balloon Group (Most of Group - exceptions follow) and all of the 5th Corps Balloon Group, Army Balloons - 1st Army, and 3rd Air Park St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne 3rd Corps Balloon Group, 4th Balloon Company Add - Aisne-Marne Ineligible for St. Mihiel 4th Corps Balloon Group (Most of Group - exceptions follow) Defensive Sector 4th Corps Balloon Group, 69th Balloon Company Add - St. Mihiel 6th Corps Balloon Group St. Mihiel There has yet to be identified any specific unit authorized the England or Italy Service Clasps. For Italy, however, it is most likely to be units from the 83rd Division in support of the 332nd Infantry Regiment. Army Service Clasps For non-combat service with the army during the First World War, the following service clasps were authorized to be worn with the World War I Victory Medal. Each service claps was inscribed with a country or region name where support service was performed. The U.S. Army issued the following service clasps: Country or Region Start Date End Date England 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 France 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Italy 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Russia (Any service) Siberia (Any service) Navy Battle Clasps Start Date End Date Armed Guard: Merchant personnel (freighters, tankers, and troop ship) 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Asiatic: Service on any vessel that visited a Siberian port 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Asiatic: Port visit must have exceeded ten days in length 12 Nov 1918 30 Mar 1920 Atlantic Fleet: Service in the Atlantic Fleet 25 May 1918 11 Nov 1918 Aviation: Service involving flying over the Atlantic Ocean 25 May 1918 11 Nov 1918 Destroyer: Service on destroyers on the Atlantic Ocean 25 May 1918 11 Nov 1918 Escort: Personnel regularly attached to escort vessels on the North Atlantic 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Grand Fleet: Personnel assigned to any ship of the “United States Grand Fleet” 9 Dec 1917 11 Nov 1918 Mine Laying: Service in mine laying sea duty 26 May 1918 11 Nov 1918 Mine Sweeping: Service in mine sweeping sea duty 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Mobile Base: Service on tenders and repair vessels 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Naval Battery: Service as a member of a naval battery detachment 10 Jul 1918 11 Nov 1918 Overseas: Service on shore in allied or enemy countries of Europe 6 Apr 1918 11 Nov 1918 Patrol: War patrol service on the Atlantic Ocean 25 May 1918 11 Nov 1918 Salvage: Salvage duty performed on the seas 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Submarine: Submarine duty performed on the Atlantic Ocean 25 May 1918 11 Nov 1918 Submarine Chaser: Anti-submarine duty performed on the Atlantic Ocean 18 May 1918 11 Nov 1918 Transport: Personnel regularly attached to a transport or cargo vessel 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 White Sea: Service on any vessel which visited a Russian port or war patrols in the White Sea not less than ten days 12 Nov 1918 31 Jul 1919 Navy Service Clasp The U.S. Navy issued similar service clasps to the Army for service in the following regions during the following periods: Region Start Date End Date England 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 France 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Italy 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Russia 12 Nov 1918 31 Jul 1919 Siberia 12 Nov 1918 30 Mar 1920 West Indies 6 Apr 1917 11 Nov 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnymac Posted December 22, 2014 Share #57 Posted December 22, 2014 The book, Battle Participation of Organizations of the American Expeditionary Force in France, Belgium and Italy, 1917-1918, Washington, Government Printing Office, 1920 listed the battles and campaigns of the 93rd Division (provisional). There are many other books that list the 93rd and their clasps. Some people have expressed the belief that the 93rd Division was not entitled to any Battle clasps on their Victory Medal because they were under French command. Thus far, I have been unable to find any official documents supporting that statement. The facts tell a completely different story. An extract from the Annual Report of the Secretary of War to the President, War Department fiscal year ended June 30, 1923, Government Printing Office, p. 162-174, reveals that the 93rd Division, 369th and 370th Infantry Regiments (colored), were awarded some of the nation's highest awards: 1 Medal of Honor, 75 Distinguished Service Crosses, and 1 Distinguished Service Medal. Yet, for some unfathomable reason, it is to be believed that they would not have been entitled to battles clasps on their medals? This logic strains credulity when the only reason given is that they served under the command of the French Army. There are numerous examples of other units serving under Allied commands, which were "on loan" from General Perishing. The 1st Gas and Flame received their training in combat, while under British command at the battle of Lys. The 131st Infantry Regiment, which was part of the 33rd Division saw combat under the command of Australian General, Sir John Monash. The 27th and 30th Divisions, A.E.F., after completion of their training remained with the British 4th Army until the end of the war. The 332nd Infantry Regiment and support units were placed under Italian command. The U.S. Navy's Grand Fleet was under Admiral Sir David Beatty, Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Fleet. Yet another rationale that has been offered to support this belief is that servicemen of 93rd Division wore the French-issued Adrian helmet and used the French Label rifle. While this may be true, it must also be said that they still wore the U.S. "doughboy" uniforms while attached to the French command. This practice was not uncommon, as seen with the U.S. Army 27th and 30th Divisions that used the arms of the command with whom they served, the British Mk. III, Lee-Enfield rifle until they were returned to U.S. Army. This list could go on, and on. The soldiers, sailors and marines sent to Russia and Siberia carried Russian rifles. The illustration below shows a sailor and a soldier bearing Russian rifles. The troops sent to Russia and Siberia were armed with the Russian M1916 Mosin Nagant rifle because there may have been a shortage of the U.S. Springfield rifle and Colt 1911 pistol, and the necessary ammunition for them,. Two United States companies, Remington and Westinghouse, manufactured the Russian rifles, which were dispatched to Murmansk, Archangel and Vladivostok during the Red/White Russian Civil War. The U.S. made Mosin Nagant rifles were also issued to British and French troops, as part of the same expedition, known as the Polar Bear Expedition. The mission in Russia was to prevent the German government from obtaining Allied military goods from Russia, and to remove the Bolsheviks from control of the Russian government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnymac Posted December 22, 2014 Share #58 Posted December 22, 2014 The pictorial record of the 27th division" these two are from the own history book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted December 23, 2014 Share #59 Posted December 23, 2014 Just a random quick note regarding the Cambrai clasp; I totaled it up once, but off the top of my head the three Engineer regiments only had about 1,800-2,200 men per regiment at the time of the campaign. Some didn't see their manpower boosted until the drafted men arrived in 1918 to supplement the original volunteers. It also seems to me that we have seen one or two clasps to men who were not actually in those regiments, but who were assigned in the area at the time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atb Posted December 23, 2014 Share #60 Posted December 23, 2014 I find the assertion on Wikipedia that members of the 93 Div received no battle clasps to be weird. The 93 Div did not really exist as a division-- no div HQ or supporting troops were organized, only the two brigades with four regiments of infantry were organized, so, strictly speaking, no one was assigned to a div HQ or other non-infanty units to receive a Victory medal. But, the inf regiments (369, 370,371, 372) received the WW1 Victory Medal with battle clasps. This is reflected in the long reply. Laslo's book is a good one I recommend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnymac Posted December 23, 2014 Share #61 Posted December 23, 2014 To help those who need a little something extra to believe. I highlighted the "battle clasps" earned by 27th Division. They along with the 30th Division served with the British thought the war. Both of these Divisions by their own history and not by a story made up by a writer, state they were under the command of the British Army. I also highlighted a few of the "battle clasps" earned by 28th Division who served under Gen. J.J. Pershing command of the American Army. I next highlighted the unassigned troops and what they were entitled too. First up is the 332nd Infantry, which was sent to Italy and served under the Italian Army command. We all know their Victory medal with the Vittorio-Veneto and Defensive Sector clasps is one of the rarest of the Victory medals. Below them is the 93th Division. 369th Infantry – Champagne-Marne, Asine-Marne, Meuse-Argonne 370th Infantry – Oise-Asine 371th Infantry – Meuse-Argonne 372nd Infantry – Meuse-Argonne (All soldier at the front in any defensive sector would received the Defensive Sector clasps in addition to any other clasps awarded.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnymac Posted December 23, 2014 Share #62 Posted December 23, 2014 Will post photos later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usa1918 Posted December 23, 2014 Share #63 Posted December 23, 2014 "With this knowledge, it is obvious that the most Battle Clasps an individual could have earned on any one medal is seven (by personnel in the 3rd Division, 6th Engineers)." As a general rule I believe you are correct, However I believe that Pershing's medal at the Smithsonian has a battle clasp for each battle, and that in Gleim's Medal Letters he writes of finding several high bar victory medals associated with ambulance companies (He associated most with the Ohio area) Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnymac Posted December 23, 2014 Share #64 Posted December 23, 2014 Motor Corps truck drivers can have up to ten battle clasps. Eight and nine clasps are more common. Interestingly General John J. Pershing does have all 14 battle clasps on his medal. Yet he was not there or, in charge of twelve of the fourteen battles he was awarded. Starting with the Cambrai battle; the British were the command on the field that day. The U.S. 11th & 12th Engineers were put into a fight or flight situation due to a Germany push. (go back and read about the 93rd Div. I mention earlier.) Also of interest is, Laslo in his book list General Pershing medal as a type-1 (wire-loop). Laslo goes on explaining about the Generals medal, ect. But from the photos I show here, General Perching medal was the type-2. These photos were sent to me from the Smithsonian. Meaning, Laslo never saw the General's medal when he wrote about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnymac Posted December 23, 2014 Share #65 Posted December 23, 2014 1920's August, Army Navy magazine showing the earlier returns on the Victory read the listing from one to fourteen. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeaker Posted March 5, 2015 Share #66 Posted March 5, 2015 Assuming that you've determined all the clasps on a given medal are legitimate issue and not recent reproductions...how much patina variation from one clasp to the next, or even, variation from clasp to medallion is acceptable. I've run across some nice looking medals that just give me a "made for sale" feeling. I know that buying a boxed medal with correct stickers is ideal, but I'm guessing some boxed variations rarely, if ever show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermanus Posted March 5, 2015 Share #67 Posted March 5, 2015 Good question Squeaker. I have seen a lot of VMs belonging to a ligid group. They all still look good. The fact that the clasps remained in the same place for more than 80 years gives them a similar patina. When they were assembled in the early twenties the color of the clasps was almost the same. Sometimes the wearer added some repro clasps. This was done a long time ago, but even today those clasps look different. Nowadays you see a lot of VMs with 4 or more clasps and the colors differ. Imho they are 99,9 % put together. Take a look at e bay today and start a search with - victory medal bar -. I think more that 75 % is repro and/or put together. The prices are high. A known single fake clasps goes for 20 $. Incredible but true. A variation between the clasps and the medal do occurs now and then. Thats because they were produced by different makers. Herman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmar Posted March 5, 2015 Share #68 Posted March 5, 2015 Hi Squeak! You raise a very good question here. I can't speak for others, but personally I've seen "fine" condition pieces that probably were in a drawer, protected from light and in a relatively climate controlled environment. Basically frozen in a time capsule, on the other hand we've all seen the examples with ribbons that are turning to powder and verdigris is evident in every crevice on the metal elements. Many factors such as star size on the clasps, to the style of the serifs on letters are a good clue to legitimacy. Ribbon wear, fading and indentations are another factor to consider when trying to determine if a clasp is original to the medal or not. It all ends up with a gut feeling, if you're skeptical then I'd pass on it. YOU are the one who needs to be happy with any precious piece that is added to your care. There is good stuff out there just waiting to be found! Best wishes to you! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hudson Posted April 15, 2016 Share #69 Posted April 15, 2016 I picked up a WWI Victory Medal at an antiques store today. When I got home I found out a lot of the similar short-ribboned Victory Medals with the full wrap brooch are called Navy/Marine medals. Is there actually a difference, if so, what, the shorter ribbon? I looked around the forum and could not find any such info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBFloyd Posted April 15, 2016 Share #70 Posted April 15, 2016 Navy recipients were authorized to wear only one clasp, so there was no need for the longer ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Jack Posted April 15, 2016 Share #71 Posted April 15, 2016 I'm not "Other," but I have found a distinction between the Army vs Navy Victory Medals, but not in the medals themselves, but rather with the bars added to the medal. Navy bars are bordered rectangular shaped with squared off corners , and wider than the Army bars. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted April 15, 2016 Share #72 Posted April 15, 2016 Other than the bars, no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hudson Posted April 15, 2016 Share #73 Posted April 15, 2016 Navy recipients were authorized to wear only one clasp, so there was no need for the longer ribbon. All of the "Navy/Marine" labeled ones do have the very short ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Linz Posted April 15, 2016 Share #74 Posted April 15, 2016 Bob, I have always thought that WWI Victory Medals issued to Navy and Marine personnel had a shorter ribbon but I have never seen any proof that my supposition is true. I had hoped that a collector of WWI Victory Medals would come up with a conclusive answer. I think there should be a correlation between ribbon length and bar or clasp combination. The length of a Navy victory medal is "X", the length of a two bar Army victory medal is "y", and the length of a six bar Army medal is "z". Once that information were figured out is would be a handy reference to help determine if a Victory Medal had bars added or removed. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomorgan Posted April 16, 2016 Share #75 Posted April 16, 2016 This is interesting, I know the Navy/USMC ribbons are shorter but so are the no bar Army, I have not looked at Laslo's book on the Victory in a long time, but not sure the USN/Marine procured they're Victories from different source or order than the Army one issue. Most of the veterans were dicharged and home before these things were mailed and think they had to go through Recruiters office locally to get them issued. I gues we should mesure what we have and inter it here to come up with some answer, but once the medal is out fo the box so to speak, I think Navy issue is a selling point not a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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