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US Air Force 1960's pistol team 1911 45, purchase opinions Please.


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I realize this isn't the "What's it worth" section but I needed some quick attention to this if possible. First off, I have no collector knowledge of the 1911 service pistol, so please bear with me if I say anything incorrect, just repeating what I've been told on this piece.

 

A friend of mine is selling this pistol for his father who says it was his pistol he used while on an Air Force Pistol Team in the 1960's. He stated this pistol was built by the unit armorer and has had no modifications since bringing it home after his discharge (also in the 60's).

 

I will post many pictures to hopefully get some opinions on a fair value to make an offer. At this point he is valuing this pistol at $1000?

 

I can say the bore and barrel look good and everything is nice and tight. He said the yellow tape on the trigger guard was from the last time he shot at Camp Perry after the trigger pull was inspected. You will also see it has a National Match barrel.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

Troy

 

post-33000-0-79897600-1417560437.jpg post-33000-0-66117100-1417560499.jpg post-33000-0-05027400-1417560514.jpg

USMC 2/2 Fox Co 0311 & 1st Recon Bn Delta Co. 0321. 1986 - 1995 (Desert Storm 90/91)

US Army Long Range Surveillance Co F 425th INF ABN LRS Team 1-6 2003 - 2005 (Iraqi Freedom 03/04)

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Looks typical, with the stippling on the front strap etc. most shooting team pistols or NM pistols I have seen where well worn like this one. It has a commercial slide (not sure if that is original), and an early 1911 frame. to bad they didn't take better care of there stuff.

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The frame may be Colt, but if so, the markings have been removed and the frame has had a new serial number added. It is also possible that the frame is not Colt, but I have no idea what it would be (but not a WWI-era Remington-UMC or Springfield, as those serial numbers would have No. before them and the placement would be different as well). Unless there is solid provenance, I don't think it's worth more than $600, and maybe not even that, as a parts gun. Can you take a picture of the top of the frame with the slide removed? That would remove any doubt as to whether the frame is a Colt or not. The grips do not look right either.

Also, the pictures do not provide a good look at each side--better to provide a full shot of the left and right sides as opposed to angling the pistol.

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Sorry I don't have the pistol in my possession to take additional pictures. I'll ask if he can send me the ones requested.

 

Thanks for all the information coming in, appreciate any help given.

 

Troy

USMC 2/2 Fox Co 0311 & 1st Recon Bn Delta Co. 0321. 1986 - 1995 (Desert Storm 90/91)

US Army Long Range Surveillance Co F 425th INF ABN LRS Team 1-6 2003 - 2005 (Iraqi Freedom 03/04)

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

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Okay he sent me a picture of the frame without the top slide on it, but it will not let me download it to the USMF? It shows the size a 202KB. Is there a reason this will not load? Every time I try, it responds with "You aren't permitted to upload this kind of file"??

USMC 2/2 Fox Co 0311 & 1st Recon Bn Delta Co. 0321. 1986 - 1995 (Desert Storm 90/91)

US Army Long Range Surveillance Co F 425th INF ABN LRS Team 1-6 2003 - 2005 (Iraqi Freedom 03/04)

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

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Okay he sent me a picture of the frame without the top slide on it, but it will not let me download it to the USMF? It shows the size a 202KB. Is there a reason this will not load? Every time I try, it responds with "You aren't permitted to upload this kind of file"??

 

Photobucket type photos are no longer permitted

 

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Photobucket type photos are no longer permitted

 

 

Yes, but I saved the picture from his email to "My Pictures" on my computer, then re-sized it and then attached it direct to the forum from my pictures? Just won't accept it for some reason.

 

I'm thinking it has something to do with his picture format?

 

Troy

USMC 2/2 Fox Co 0311 & 1st Recon Bn Delta Co. 0321. 1986 - 1995 (Desert Storm 90/91)

US Army Long Range Surveillance Co F 425th INF ABN LRS Team 1-6 2003 - 2005 (Iraqi Freedom 03/04)

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donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

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Here, I'll do it the simple way and just take a picture of his picture on my screen. I think will show what needs to be looked at anyway. I tried to enhance the lighting in the 2nd picture to show the details better.

 

Thanks

 

post-33000-0-72950000-1417569584.jpg post-33000-0-58585700-1417569852.jpg

USMC 2/2 Fox Co 0311 & 1st Recon Bn Delta Co. 0321. 1986 - 1995 (Desert Storm 90/91)

US Army Long Range Surveillance Co F 425th INF ABN LRS Team 1-6 2003 - 2005 (Iraqi Freedom 03/04)

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

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Now seeing the frame, and the concern mentioned earlier (post #8) in the thread about the location of the serial number is there any red flags to be noted here? I know the pistol is registered. I guess what I'm asking is; was it common practice to bring these (pistol team pistols) home after discharge and did it require them to change the serial numbers or remove any US Govt markings to do so? Or, is there no issues with that serial number and its location etc.?

USMC 2/2 Fox Co 0311 & 1st Recon Bn Delta Co. 0321. 1986 - 1995 (Desert Storm 90/91)

US Army Long Range Surveillance Co F 425th INF ABN LRS Team 1-6 2003 - 2005 (Iraqi Freedom 03/04)

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donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

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I hate to be the wet blanket but I don't think this gun is worth anywhere near $1,000. Values are a subjective thing, especially on a gun like this but I see several problems:

 

1. It is a post war commercial slide that may have been purchased as a military spare but there is no way to know at this late date.

2. The modifications appear to be consistent with a military shooting team pistol but since it doesn't conform to the standards set by Springfield Armory for the Camp Perry matches it is another question mark.

3. Most problematic is the early M1911 frame. All the markings have been ground off including the serial number. The number on it now has been hand stamped. Even if this was done by a military armorer, the BATF assumes that this serial number is bogus and the gun is considered contraband subject to forfeiture and a felony conviction. I can provide proof of this if necessary.

4. It may be a great shooter and I'm not questioning anyone's integrity...just pointing out the problems I see. Even if the serial number had not been tampered with I don't think it has any collector value and would only be worth its value as a shooter. YMMV.

 

Regards,

Kevin Williams

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It's a colt made replacement frame, has the springfield proof on left side of frame, slide is a pre series 70 colt commercial. can't tell if the grips are wood or plastic.

I'm not sure the mark on the left side of frame you are referring to is the proof mark because it's very indistinct (even when blown up), but the marks on the top rear of the frame look like a G and H (and possibly a P), so I'm in agreement that this is a Colt frame. However, I am unfamiliar with the serial number being indicative of a replacement frame. Could you point me to a reference that talks about Colt providing replacement frames?

 

As for the grips, they look wood, but the shape of the right grip does not look consistent with the shape of the grip on USGI pistols, which is why it would be good to see a full picture of each side.

 

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I hate to be the wet blanket but I don't think this gun is worth anywhere near $1,000. Values are a subjective thing, especially on a gun like this but I see several problems:

 

1. It is a post war commercial slide that may have been purchased as a military spare but there is no way to know at this late date.

2. The modifications appear to be consistent with a military shooting team pistol but since it doesn't conform to the standards set by Springfield Armory for the Camp Perry matches it is another question mark.

3. Most problematic is the early M1911 frame. All the markings have been ground off including the serial number. The number on it now has been hand stamped. Even if this was done by a military armorer, the BATF assumes that this serial number is bogus and the gun is considered contraband subject to forfeiture and a felony conviction. I can provide proof of this if necessary.

4. It may be a great shooter and I'm not questioning anyone's integrity...just pointing out the problems I see. Even if the serial number had not been tampered with I don't think it has any collector value and would only be worth its value as a shooter. YMMV.

 

Regards,

Kevin Williams

Best advice so far..

personally I would steer clear of this for $1k, and especially any possible future issues with the serial number.

even if the serial number wasn't an issue.. I am more around the $500-$600 mark for this gun as a shooter IMO.

-Brian

GOT SEABEE ITEMS? PM ME!

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It is NEVER OK to alter a serial number, even for the military to do so. In the distant past, when a M1911 or M1911A1 serial number was obliterated by an arsenal refurbish process, the Ordnance Dept had authorization to issue a new serial number starting with an X. I'm not sure what you mean by it being "registered." All in all you can find better shooters, if that's what you want and/or you can find collectible pieces that will appreciate in value. This pistol is neither, IMHO.

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It is NEVER OK to alter a serial number, even for the military to do so. In the distant past, when a M1911 or M1911A1 serial number was obliterated by an arsenal refurbish process, the Ordnance Dept had authorization to issue a new serial number starting with an X. I'm not sure what you mean by it being "registered." All in all you can find better shooters, if that's what you want and/or you can find collectible pieces that will appreciate in value. This pistol is neither, IMHO.

I should be clear, I don't know if there is anything wrong with the serial number, I only brought up the question about it because it was mentioned in an earlier post it seemed to be odd? So I don't know either way. But looking at this in person, I can't see any signs of anything being removed or altered.

 

And what I mean by "registered" is all pistols in Michigan are documented and registered to a pistol permit to legally own them and the serial number is part of the permit history check.

 

I will see what further information I can get, reference the frame and serial number etc.

 

Thanks again

Troy

USMC 2/2 Fox Co 0311 & 1st Recon Bn Delta Co. 0321. 1986 - 1995 (Desert Storm 90/91)

US Army Long Range Surveillance Co F 425th INF ABN LRS Team 1-6 2003 - 2005 (Iraqi Freedom 03/04)

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donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

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I'm not sure the mark on the left side of frame you are referring to is the proof mark because it's very indistinct (even when blown up), but the marks on the top rear of the frame look like a G and H (and possibly a P), so I'm in agreement that this is a Colt frame. However, I am unfamiliar with the serial number being indicative of a replacement frame. Could you point me to a reference that talks about Colt providing replacement frames?

 

As for the grips, they look wood, but the shape of the right grip does not look consistent with the shape of the grip on USGI pistols, which is why it would be good to see a full picture of each side.

 

 

The reason I know what the mark on the left side is because I own a 1911 with that springfield proof, look close and it is a eagle head pointed up with a number under it. Colt made replacement frames and some where later marked with that proof, as for as the serial number i don't have a problem with it. who knows what they did back then. I didn't see any sign of grinding on the frame so who knows. But i still say it is legit from what i have seen in the past on this type of pistol.

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