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US Air Force 1960's pistol team 1911 45, purchase opinions Please.


USMC-RECON0321
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I hate to be the wet blanket but I don't think this gun is worth anywhere near $1,000. Values are a subjective thing, especially on a gun like this but I see several problems:

 

1. It is a post war commercial slide that may have been purchased as a military spare but there is no way to know at this late date.

2. The modifications appear to be consistent with a military shooting team pistol but since it doesn't conform to the standards set by Springfield Armory for the Camp Perry matches it is another question mark.

3. Most problematic is the early M1911 frame. All the markings have been ground off including the serial number. The number on it now has been hand stamped. Even if this was done by a military armorer, the BATF assumes that this serial number is bogus and the gun is considered contraband subject to forfeiture and a felony conviction. I can provide proof of this if necessary.

4. It may be a great shooter and I'm not questioning anyone's integrity...just pointing out the problems I see. Even if the serial number had not been tampered with I don't think it has any collector value and would only be worth its value as a shooter. YMMV.

 

Regards,

Kevin Williams

 

by looking at this what makes you think all markings are ground off? It has a Springfield proof. just wanting your opinion on the grinding thing. Not trying to start trouble LOL

 

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I'm not sure the mark on the left side of frame you are referring to is the proof mark because it's very indistinct (even when blown up), but the marks on the top rear of the frame look like a G and H (and possibly a P), so I'm in agreement that this is a Colt frame. However, I am unfamiliar with the serial number being indicative of a replacement frame. Could you point me to a reference that talks about Colt providing replacement frames?

 

As for the grips, they look wood, but the shape of the right grip does not look consistent with the shape of the grip on USGI pistols, which is why it would be good to see a full picture of each side.

 

 

If you look in the blue book of gun values it gives ranges for colt "frames only" which are replacement or maybe frames for other contractors.

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USMC-RECON0321

 

1. It is a post war commercial slide that may have been purchased as a military spare but there is no way to know at this late date.

Yes it is very possible post war (WWII I assume you meant), he was serving and on the pistol team in the 1960's.

2. The modifications appear to be consistent with a military shooting team pistol but since it doesn't conform to the standards set by Springfield Armory for the Camp Perry matches it is another question mark.

Could you explain what on the pistol you see that would not conform to the standards for the Camp Perry matches? And would these same standards be in place in the 60's?

Thanks, just trying to learn.

Troy

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If you look in the blue book of gun values it gives ranges for colt "frames only" which are replacement or maybe frames for other contractors.

 

I've got several books on the M1911 (Clawson, Meadows, Poyer) and in Meadows he does reference replacement frames by Colt. However, the replacement frames were used when a production frame failed to pass inspection and the serial number would be stamped just like the original. The serial number on this pistol would not have been stamped by Colt; as to who did it is a question for the OP to research in making a decision to purchase. As for the Eagle's Head proof, this was used on Colt M1911s from about SN 303000 to end of production SN 629000. You may be right that the mark on the left side of the frame is the Eagle's Head, and I do believe this is a Colt frame based on seeing the top rear of the frame in the last photos. Furthermore, if the Eagle's Head proof is on this frame, it would have to have the United States Property marking either on the left side (or right side for later serial numbers) and those markings are not there. It appears to me that those markings have been removed as has the original serial number, and a new serial number put on there. I am of the opinion this pistol has no real collector value unless there is a proven trail of documentation that matches it to a specific unit or team that used it in military marksmanship competition.

 

Those frames that Colt provided other manufacturers would have their marks on the frame, as well as the United States Property marking; the Eagle's Head proof would not have been stamped with out the United States Property marking.

 

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Guys,

 

I'm not trying to be difficult but this is an area fraught with problems, some regarding value and some involving legal issues. It would take several books to explain the problems here but I'll try to hit the highlights:

 

1. The replacement frames were made and used in the WWI era--not in the 1950s and 1960s. And they were numbered in the style of the day. This pistol is NOT.

2. Having collected and studied these pistols for 30+ years I can tell you without doubt that serial number is bogus and is a potential FELONY to possess! Do you want to run that risk for a POS made up of parts? (Sorry to be crude but you seem determined to buy this pistol. Wishing won't make it right.)

3. I recommend two books as a minimum, if you are going to get into this area: U.S. Military Match and Marksmanship Automatic Pistols by Bill Jenkins and Collector's Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols by Charles Clawson. I cannot type enough to explain all the variations of U.S. military pistols, especially the National Match pistols. I authored an article several years ago for Man at Arms magazine that I can send you as a PDF file that is a place to start.

 

In short, I would avoid this pistol at ANY price and I certainly wouldn't pay $1,000.

 

All the best,

Kevin Williams

http://www.usgipistols.com/

 

I was typing while thorin6 was posting. He's right.

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USMC-RECON0321

I appreciate the input. But for the record, I'm not determined to buy this pistol by any stretch of the imagination. If my mind was made up, i wouldn't have posted it here. I'm just trying to learn and asking questions to statements being made, that don't go into enough detail for me to understand the meaning or intent. Like the comment made about this pistol not conforming to Camp Perry regs, but not explaining why? If that is true, it may be a clue to the story (or history) about this pistol not adding up. Also, anyone reading this thread from the start would agree the information is going back and forth between good to bad. So as I stated in the beginning, I'm not versed in these but do realize there are many details in military firearms that can make or break a deal and that is what I'm trying to figure out on this one. Even if I decide to pass on this, I think this thread is still a good education on this pistol and its supposed history. The original owner is still around and well, so I will ask the questions needed about what has been said here and see what can be explained. Maybe we'll learn something new, or not.

 

I still welcome any more input on this. Very interesting.

 

Thanks again

Troy

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I'm leaning more toward a "steak and beer" gun than an actual USAF commissioned team pistol.

 

A lot of shooters decide they want their own gun and the local match armorer builds them one for "steak and beer" (or a modest amount of $$$) using Government resources (Knowledge,tools,time,parts) but usually on a frame the shooter scrounges up. I know this because the process was still in effect when I was building guns at CRP at Quantico back in the dark ages.

 

I would put money on that being the case here considering the mismash of parts involved and the rather crude appearance of the finished product.

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As far as buying it....unless it has provenance then you could spend your $1000 in much better ways. I wont put over $500 in any USGI match pistol unless it has serious significance as to who the owner is/was or a major match win documentation.

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USMC-RECON0321

The only information added today from the Vet himself, is he purchased this firearm in the early 60's (Enlistment dates 1963 to 1967) while stationed at Wurtsmith AFB, Michigan (now closed) from an AF Master Sgt who was also on the pistol team. The Master Sgt. had the match pistol built and accurized by an Armorer at Lackland AFB, San Antonio Tx. So, most likely the MstSgt had the pistol built maybe in the 1950's and the serial number was on the frame exactly as it is now and legally registered this way in Michigan since the 1960's. That's all the additional information I have to provide at this time.

 

Thanks again

Troy

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Serial numbers weren't required on firearms before 1968. Defacing a firearm was also part of the 1968 gun control act, any firearm made before then are exempt from this requirement. So since the gun was made pre 68 and if it was reserial numbered pre68 then it's legal.

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Serial numbers weren't required on firearms before 1968. Defacing a firearm was also part of the 1968 gun control act, any firearm made before then are exempt from this requirement. So since the gun was made pre 68 and if it was reserial numbered pre68 then it's legal.

I'm sorry but that is absolutely untrue.

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post-403-0-63624400-1417625898.jpg

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Originality and condition considered, I'd say that your buddies price seems is top-end for what you're looking at. Just my two cents.

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USMC-RECON0321

Interesting, But again what evidence or proof is there to say this is not a correct serial number for that frame? I didn't see any other markings nor signs of anything altered or removed and the serial number looks factory applied to me and not hand stamped individually, one digit at a time, which would certainly show if done that way. I.E. spacing, alignment, depth, etc.?

 

Again, just asking to learn. What if this isn't a Colt MFG frame or maybe a very early 1900's Colt replacement frame?

 

The fact that it is legally registered in Michigan with the required pistol permit means the SN has been checked and verified as good or been accepted as good?

 

Thanks

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The problem is that the state probably does not check validity of serial numbers... That isn't their job.

 

They simply make sure the gun you own matches the serial that is registered etc. ... If they find a stolen gun locate the owner etc.

 

Even if buying from a FFL I don't know how anyone would ever know whether or not it was an originally stamped serial.

 

-Brian

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I'm sorry but that is absolutely untrue.

 

I don't see any proof that this frame in question has been ground down enough to do away with the original serial number if it had one. The pistol i have, the serial number is stamped deep and looks like it could have been done by hand, but it's a Augusta rework and if you where gonna grind it down then you would never mistake it because the slide release would stick way out and the grips would have a gap and it just would look very bad. The frame would need to be measured to see if it was done by a mill machine but even if it was you would have the same problem. What i was trying to say before was that before 1968 anybody could do anything to a firearm's serial number etc. because that law went into effect in 1968. But anyway like i said, use what these guys on here are saying and some good personal judgement before you buy it, if you do.

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Charlie Flick

USMC-Recon:

 

Here is another data point for you. The NM barrel in this pistol (Part number NM77267717) was used for NM pistols from 1955 through 1958. It was replaced in 1959 with an improved barrel.

 

The barrel on the pistol in question also bears a serial number for another pistol, not the one in question. Thus, it appears to me that the barrel was removed from a 1955-58 NM pistol and installed on this pistol.

 

Kwill has made some excellent points here, and he speaks from a position of considerable knowledge as a researcher and writer on USGI pistols. I would be inclined to take his advice if I were you and take a pass on this pistol.

 

Regards,

Charlie

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USMC-RECON0321

The problem is that the state probably does not check validity of serial numbers... That isn't their job.

 

They simply make sure the gun you own matches the serial that is registered etc. ... If they find a stolen gun locate the owner etc.

 

Even if buying from a FFL I don't know how anyone would ever know whether or not it was an originally stamped serial.

 

-Brian

 

I agree, that is kind of my point. The SN is there, looks to be factory applied and no signs of anything altered, removed or defaced. So no violation per State or Federal regs as far as I can tell. The State has long accepted the SN as legal to this firearm and legal to own. I don't know without any other markings if it will ever be known where or who made this frame and applied the SN? I can try emailing the question and pictures to Colt and see if they can answer this or not. For all we know, this could be a blank frame provided to the military very early on and serialized by them once assembled?

 

I don't have any Colt frames to compare, but can anyone compare the style / font of the numbers used on this frame with known Colt Frames from the early 1900's to 1960? That may be a clue in itself.

 

Again, so no one confuses my reply's intent as being different than intended, this has now become more about learning or solving a mystery than making a decision to buy or not. I was not actively looking for one of these, so it's not the end of the world if I get one or not!

 

Thanks

Troy

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Look on the top back portion of the frame. See if there is an H, a G, and/or a P stamped there. Also look at the area on the left side of the frame just above the magazine release button for a small Eagle's Head with a number underneath. If any of those marks are there, the frame is most likely a Colt M1911 frame. If none of those marks are there, then it is either another manufactured frame, a Colt frame that has been altered, or (long shot) a Colt frame that left the factory without any stampings done. I'm of the opinion that Kwill is correct in his assessment of the pistol; I've only been collecting M1911s for the past 10 years but his opinions seem valid based on my experience.

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