RelicHunter99 Posted November 27, 2014 Share #1 Posted November 27, 2014 I have seen lots of examples of CW pieces with 4 attaching loops, but seldom 2. Then of course the straight wires are post war add ons by Bannerman and the like. Ive posted photos of two different artillery insignia. Do either, both, or neither appear to be CW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RelicHunter99 Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share #2 Posted November 27, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RelicHunter99 Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share #3 Posted November 27, 2014 Then you see items like this that confuse it even more. No loops, but straight pins on this insignia. http://www.shilohrelics.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item.asp?99847 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Rogers Posted November 28, 2014 Share #4 Posted November 28, 2014 I would discount them both. On the one with two loops, the 1865 QM regs specify four loops and I think that is what you will find looking at excavated examples, except some of the commercial false-embroidered variants. The one with four loops seems to fit the bill, but the fakers have been using loops rather than straight wire for some time now. The loops they use tend to be of the rather narrown and neatly rounded type that are on both these insignia. As for the cap in the link, the repair work on the cloth makes it clear it is not "out of the woodwork," the presence of the insignia implies it was issued and worn, but the rather nice interior suggests a surplus piece. That is not to knock it, but it makes the insignia on it less usable as guidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RelicHunter99 Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share #5 Posted November 28, 2014 Here is a question. Are fakers expoosing themselves to lead? From what I have read, the loops were originally attached with solderd lead. If that is true, couldnt lead tests be done to determine whether a piece is more likely to be original. I wouldnt doubt all possibilities, but it would seem most fakers wouldnt expose themselves to toxic material like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RelicHunter99 Posted November 29, 2014 Author Share #6 Posted November 29, 2014 I would discount them both. On the one with two loops, the 1865 QM regs specify four loops and I think that is what you will find looking at excavated examples, except some of the commercial false-embroidered variants. The one with four loops seems to fit the bill, but the fakers have been using loops rather than straight wire for some time now. The loops they use tend to be of the rather narrown and neatly rounded type that are on both these insignia. As for the cap in the link, the repair work on the cloth makes it clear it is not "out of the woodwork," the presence of the insignia implies it was issued and worn, but the rather nice interior suggests a surplus piece. That is not to knock it, but it makes the insignia on it less usable as guidelines. But the thin rounded loops appear on dug items as well, such as here. http://www.relicman.com/miscellaneous/imagesmiscellaneous/M0616B.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Rogers Posted November 30, 2014 Share #7 Posted November 30, 2014 I have no idea on the question of lead-poisoning. I would expect they are using a modern solder, but what are the costs of detecting it? As for the loops, I attach a jpeg of some insignia I happen to have at hand. The upper left is an 1872 pattern cav insignia. Its loops are what I refer to as the narrow and rounded loops. Most fake CW insignia I have seen offered online that have loops show loops of this sort (and on the fake CW cav insignia they frequently orient them crosswise.) The other three are CW pattern infantry insignia. The two on the right are the same die strike and show similar loops- rather broader and squarer, though even here the lower one shows one narrower loop that is taller and more rounded at the top. The lower left is a different die strike (and thus likely by a different contractor) and has two slightly different loops, both rounded but nowhere near as uniform as the 1872 example. So, while I can't comment on the excavated one in the link, I think there is enough variation in manufacture that it may be fine, but if I were looking for one quintessential example for my collection, I would probably opt for one with the squarer loops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Rogers Posted November 30, 2014 Share #8 Posted November 30, 2014 As a followup, I post images of the backs of three insignia that I think bear close scrutiny: a hardee hat eagle, a cw cav insignia, an indian war 7th cav insignia. Note the loops used on each. The eagle is especially instructive: the maker has put only one loop on the back instead of two and has misunderstood the hook at the bottom, soldering it in the wrong way. Of course, now that this is online, they will probably rectify the mistake. These are out there in many hands and have begun to come on the secondary market from collectors who purchased them. Twenty years ago or so you ran into restrikes that had wires on the back etc., but there was nowhere near the quantity out there, though when the price of cavalry enlisted insignia hit the $150 mark a few clever folk did find it worthwhile to remove the wires from the restrikes and reproductions and solder in correct looking loops. Anyway, the starting point in collecting CW hat insignia should be the six part series on Regulation Headgear Insignia of the Union Army by James Frasca published in North South Trader from 1979-1981 in issues 6.6, 7.1 7.2 7.5 8.1 9.1. There are more recent publications, too, but those articles are a key reference. Past issues are probably available from the publisher. The last image is from the article on cavalry insignia showing the reverse of one. Returning to the question that started this all- how many loops? I venture the following: Infantry two or three (three is a scarce variant but does show up in legit surplus and on some caps.) Cavalry: four. Artillery: four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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