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New Questions about Iwo Jima Flag raising photo? Has anyone seen this?


Bellumbill
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I echo all the statements above on this issue. The first flag was the most important. Bradley had a hand in that. He was certainly close by the second. All the men there raised those flags symbolically. My only argument is that when certain things get pointed out using visual facts, some people don't/won't accept them. It's kind of like showing someone an apple and telling them it's actually an orange. I guess too, it's hard to fathom after almost 70 years just how much feeling this photo generated in a public that was not constantly bombarded by media as today. It will live forever.

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At this stage of the game I'm not sure if it matters. Clearly "Doc" Bradley cared little for the event and if his son's book is accurate at all, he would gladly not have been included. It was a throwaway moment in the midst of a lot of horror for him ending in his wounding. Interestingly enough the photos included in the article show Bradley was there for the first flag raising. In the end that is the more significant flag.

 

But even that too is insignificant to the price all those guys paid for being on Iwo. None of them pushed for the photo to be anything. The machine made it heroic. The machine made it a statue. What makes all the people that served on Iwo special is the sacrifice they all made a d the price they paid.

 

I think we often lose the plot when we get caught up in this kind of stuff. Our thirst for heroes often forces those who know how rediculous that term is to have to suffer with that label.

the story is the story and the image is powerful no doubt. But, nothing is lost in the quest for historical accuracy or clarity. The more we know about the photo the more interesting it becomes. If that weren't the case why would anyone care at all who is in it? The image is a great example of teamwork and camaraderie and nobody is questioning that or "losing the plot" it's just a quest for historical accuracy and for that I applaud Steve and his curiosity. We on the forum are probably more aware than most of the gruesomeness of the Battle on Iwo Jima. We've probably all known veterans who fought there and maybe even had them in the family. In a way they're all anonymous. Most of them would just say they were only doing their job and the real heroes are long gone. Well the men on the photo aren't anonymous they are real and made more so by the book and the movie. But let's get it straight for this generation and for the future generations.

Tom Bowers

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Hbtcoveralls,

If people on here are interested in photos, they should check out the ones on the Marine Corps' own History Branch website. The website iwojima.com is where I came across the section dealing with John Bradley's involvement in the first flag raising. It is mainly based on a piece that Dustin Spence, a film-maker, wrote in the October 2006 issue of Leatherneck magazine. His reasons for doing this were to give recognition to those who were involved in this event. He actually made a documentary on the first flag raising. These men have largely been forgotten by history, and arguably their flag was the most important. It was the one that brought a tumultuous cheer from all who saw it. Some of the people in these photos had fought for years to be recognised as flag raisers. Men like Charles "Chuck" Lindberg, who humped a 72 pound flamethrower up that mountain. Ray Jacobs was the radioman from F Company, 2nd Battalion, 28th Marines, attached to the patrol. No one ever believed him until in latter years he employed a photo expert to confirm his presence by using facial recognition techniques. Still the Marine Corps authorities would not confirm his presence there.

 

The unfortunate thing in all this is that when James Bradley wrote "Flags of our Fathers", these photos were not available. They were apparently found in 2002, in the archives of Leatherneck magazine. How they lay undisturbed for so long is a mystery. They were published in that magazine in June 2002. Among them is a photo that appeared in the book "Spearhead", A History of the 5th Marine Division. This was published just some years after the war, and was republished in 1987. So not all these photos lay undiscovered until 2002.

 

Maybe some people think I am wrong to question this subject, or that I have some other motive. I don't have any motives other than a desire for facts to be accepted as facts in terms of photographic evidence at least. If a person put a picture of an M1 Garand rifle on this site and captioned it with M14, wouldn't people know the difference. I'm just interested in US military history. I'm man enough to say that if it weren't for the US, and her allies, we in Ireland would be speaking German by now, or maybe Russian.

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the story is the story and the image is powerful no doubt. But, nothing is lost in the quest for historical accuracy or clarity. The more we know about the photo the more interesting it becomes. If that weren't the case why would anyone care at all who is in it? The image is a great example of teamwork and camaraderie and nobody is questioning that or "losing the plot" it's just a quest for historical accuracy and for that I applaud Steve and his curiosity. We on the forum are probably more aware than most of the gruesomeness of the Battle on Iwo Jima. We've probably all known veterans who fought there and maybe even had them in the family. In a way they're all anonymous. Most of them would just say they were only doing their job and the real heroes are long gone. Well the men on the photo aren't anonymous they are real and made more so by the book and the movie. But let's get it straight for this generation and for the future generations.

Tom Bowers

 

I don't think I made my point very well. I see folks seeing the need to somehow defend Bradley. Again, he didn't want recognition for helping with a piece of pipe that happened to have a flag at the end. Whether it's him or some other Marine, the fact that somehow their place in a photo of the second raising of a flag on Suribachi is nothing more than trivia. Their significance is the sacrifice they made and that applies to all those who served on Iwo.

 

My impression from his son's book was that Bradley was bothered by the fact that people wanted to see heroes where there weren't while forgetting that sacrifice and cost. I'm not suggesting not telling the story of any Marine who served on Iwo, but their story should not be defined by a flag raising photo, first or second. They were so much more.

 

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The images which Tarbridge has posted a couple of posts above were at my request, so I thank him again for that. Has anyone ever seen these photos before? They are both photos taken by Marine photographer Staff Sgt. Meyers Cornelius. He was the 5th Marine Division Photo Lab Chief I believe. The group photo is from the National Archives:127-N-1120449. It shows a group beneath the first flag raised atop Mount Suribachi on Feb. 23 1945. Does anyone know the identities of any of these men. I would contend that the figure next to the man wearing the soft HBT utility cap is Corpsman John Bradley. His left hand rests on his Unit Three medical bag. I hazard a guess that the man cradling the carbine is Lt. Harold Schrier who led the patrol that secured the summit. Crouched to the right with what appears to be a fragmentation grenade in his hand is Pl. Sgt. Ernest "Boots" Thomas.

 

The other photo portrays Sgt. Lou Lowery, posing beneath the first flag. It was published in Leatherneck magazine, issue October 2006. From these photos it is clear that Lowery was not the only cameraman who accompanied this patrol, or at the very least, Cornelius arrived at the top very soon after. It also shows that Lowery had some time to pose beneath this flag, before the Japanese reacted to it. (Or at the very least, during a lull in the engagement before he had to dodge a Japanese grenade, resulting in him having to leave the mountaintop). Apparently another 5th Marine Division photographer, Sgt. Louis Burmeister was also there. He took photos around the time of the first flag raising. His photos have really only come to light within the last few years. It is said he took a shot of the second flag raising too, but it has never been seen. Does anyone know anything of this?

Stephen

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Stephen and all,

I for one find your research efforts fascinating and commendable and feel they are being conducted in the appropriately respectful manor. I have seen Dustin Spense's article and although it can be said that he is a bit unfamiliar with the field gear in use by U.S. Marines in 1945, his photo analysis is most helpful. This close up he provides of the image posted here, taken after the first flag raising, does appear to show Bradley, with his medical bags, second from left.

 

 

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Something I hadn't realized was that sometime between the first flag raising, about 10:30 am, and the second flag, about 12:00, a Catholic service was held at the summit and was attended by several flag-raisers, including Bradley. In the famous image, many appear to have removed their field gear, as well as their head-coverings, as would be appropriate, and may explain differences in any particular individuals attire between the two events. Mr. Spence sites a letter, written by Bradley to his parents, from Iwo, that not only mentions this service, but also how he felt at the time about participating in the flag raising.

Best regards, Paul

 

 

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post-9787-0-97203200-1417360405.jpg

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This Catholic Mass was celebrated by a Catholic Jesuit priest, Fr. Suver. It is said that before the battle he commented that he would say Mass atop the mountain when it was captured. The service took place between the first and second flag raisings, although some have said it was after the second flag was up. At that time it was generally not possible to conduct a Catholic Mass no more than one hour after mid-day, so it probably did take place between the first and second raisings. Bradley attended this Mass, according to a letter he sent his parents that he wrote on Feb. 26 1945. He is reputed to be in a picture of that scene. This photo I believe was taken by Louis Burmeister.

Stephen

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  • 2 weeks later...
ViewfinderGyrene

As with anything, no matter who you are, you must be sure you have enough evidence within your findings before you start something like this.

 

The photographic evidence does not, in any way, take away from what this photo represents- a victory that all the Marines of Iwo secured. [My great-uncle was one of them].

 

IF something is discovered as being contrary to what has been believed, the time difference matters not. That's the beauty of history: some things are concrete and remain so, whereas with others new questions are asked. I feel nothing negative toward Bradley regardless. I believe most of all that if another man is found to have taken part, he should eventually be given his due. No matter how much time has passed.

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I would never call into question John Bradley's service to his country. Or what ever else he was asked to do by going on a bond tour. He served his country in a way that most people are fortunate enough not to have to experience. All the men who served there helped raise their country's flag on that mountain top. Even though he never considered himself a hero, I think he was. They all were.

Stephen

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Stephen,

 

Well done! I was skeptical when I first saw the link to the information, but after reviewing it several times I am convinced you are correct. I sent the links to the Omaha article and the 5th Division website to a friend of mine that is a former Navy pilot, WWII buff and has explored Okinawa with his metal detector when he was staioned there in the Navy retrieving many battle souveniers. His name is Marty Black and he is quite well- versed on WWII Marine Corps history and studies the battles of Iwo Jime and Okinawa extensively. He commented on your research and allowed me to post his comments if I felt someone would be interested. I thought you might be interested in his prior conversation with John Bradley many years ago. Marty had extensively reviewed photographs from the period and had many of the same questions you did. His comments are below:

 

 

WOW! That’s fantastic, and I dunno if I ever told you, but the saga of the two flag-raisings has been one of my “obsessions” for decades. I went with the Marines to Iwo for the 50th anniversary in 1995, and spent a lot of time talking to 3 of the survivors of that 40 man patrol - Chuck Lindberg (the flame-thrower operator), rifleman Phil Ward, and BAR man “Chick” Robeson (who lost a few fingers and part of his right hand when the BAR he was carrying was destroyed by machinegun fire. The bulk of the BAR probably saved his life. Otherwise, he would’ve had a massive gut wound.)

Anyhow, I too have always harbored doubts about John Bradley’s identification in the famous photo. For sure, he was there for the 1st flag-raising - he even mentioned it in a letter home to his parents - but there have always been “questions” about his image in the famous photo….which that historian Eric Krelle has so aptly pointed out. I collected most of the photos seen on that website. And I bought the 2 or 3 books that have been written about the flag raisings. They’re in a box in my storage shed, so I can’t refer to them at the moment.
I dunno if I ever told you, but when I was a copilot on the 767, one of the Captains I flew with was a neighbor of Bradley. He had a summer lake-side home in WI, and Bradley had one next door. I asked the Captain if he would take a book on Iwo Jima (that I happened to have with me on that trip) with him, and get Bradley’s autograph. He did….Sometime later, I flew with that Captain again, and asked if Bradley might be receptive to my visiting him at the funeral home in Antigo. I was anxious to meet the man whom I admired so much. But I knew that Bradley kept a very low profile, so to speak. The Captain checked, and - when I saw him again - he gave me the green light, and Bradley’s office number.
I called Bradley and made an appointment to visit him. It was a long drive from Crystal Lake to Antigo! Before I left, I mentioned this visit to Winston Ramsey (Editor of "After the Battle" publications in London) - whom you met - and Winston asked me to take a photo of him. I brought my camera (in a bag with other books I asked Bradley to autograph), but I made a quick and reluctant decision NOT to ask for his photo. I could tell that Bradley was being courteous to me, only as a courtesy to his airline Captain neighbor, and I didn’t want to wear out my welcome, or cause either of us embarrassment or an awkward moment.
Anyhow, Bradley gave me about 15 minutes of his time before saying that he needed to get back to work. He thumbed thru the photos in the books I brought, remarking how much he liked and respected Sgt “Boots” Thomas. A little guy. He was KIA. I specifically asked Bradley why he was wearing a cartridge belt, but he just shrugged. He was not “into” the minutia of what uniform items he wore. I also wondered what that long scabbard-like device was on his right hip, but again - he couldn’t remember. I thought it odd that a Corpsman would wear a cartridge belt and a bayonet scabbard….
Knowing that the Japs didn’t respect the Rules of Warfare, I asked Bradley if he carried a sidearm. He replied that he tucked a .45 in the small of his back in his belt, and used it once. He was treating a casualty, when a Japanese charged him. He reached for his .45 in time and killed him.
I knew Bradley had earned the Navy Cross, and asked him about it, but again - this stuff meant nothing to him. He pointed to a coat closet adjacent to his office door, and said “it’s in a shoebox in there somewhere.”
When I commented on the significance (to me) of the famous photo, he just said “It was nothing really. I just jumped in there and gave 'em a hand.” Those were his exact words.
That’s just the way he was, and that attitude has been well-documented over the decades. And for the other guys as well - Lindberg, Ward, and Robeson. It was just another day in the battle. It had no significance or long-term meaning in and of itself.
During the 1995 reunion, I asked Chuck Lindberg about Bradley’s identification. I showed him the photo taken at the time of the first flag-raising. It’s in the Omaha newspaper article link you sent me. It shows Bradley’s back, and Lindberg can be seen to his left, bent over, digging or stomping with his boot. Lindberg sports a thin mustache, has a .45 holster and wears his watch on his right wrist. Lindberg said that the Corpsman was Bradley, but when I pointed out the inconsistencies in the uniform and 782 gear, Lindberg said, “well, then it must be Doc “Jennings,” another Corpsman in E Company. I put parentheses around Jennings, because I can’t remember the fellow’s name anymore, but I might have it written down in my Iwo Jima file. I’ll try to dig it out sometime.
Sometime after that, James Bradley contacted me - Winston had given him my name and email address. James was looking for people whom his father had spoken with, about Iwo Jima, since the old man had steadfastly refused to discuss it at home.
Thru emails and phone calls, we communicated fairly regularly, and then he asked me I would help with research for his book. I went to the downtown Chicago library, and spent hours going thru microfilches and making copies of newspaper articles, re: the War Bond Drive there and Ira Haye’s subsequent problems with the law. I had my Mom do the same thing at the Denver library, re: the War Bond drive visit there. I also sent James all the photos I had taken during the 1995 visit.
Lastly, knowing that James was not conversant in USMC Order of Battle organization/terms, 782 gear, etc., I offered to do a technical proof-read of the manuscript. He FEDEX’d it to me, but said he needed my feedback in 4 days. Jeez, I can’t do such a thing in 4 days! Nonetheless, I busted my butt and focused my attention on that task, sacrificing sleep and every other activity to get it done….and I got it done in time. Lots of red ink in the margins. I FEDEX’d it back to James, and then called him to say it was enroute. He replied “Don’t bother, I had someone else look it over, and it’s gone to the Publisher already.” I couldn’t believe it! - Why do authors always fall into the trap of rushing something to the Publisher before the book is truly ready? And why did I bust my butt for nothing?!
But he thanked me for my help, and said “Your reward will be a free copy of the book.” It never came. My Mom bought me a copy for my birthday, and I was disappointed. No credit for my work, and the one photo of mine that he used (from the 1995 visit) was attributed to Marty Block, not me. He or the publisher must’ve been thinking of flag-raiser Harlon Block at the time. I was ticked, and never read the finished product. Seeing him on TV show interviews as the book reached the Best Sellers’ List, I came to the opinion that his five-minutes-of-fame had gone to his head.
Anyhow, it’s too bad that the USMC historians are not willing to consider Eric Krelle’s/Stephen Foley's research and findings. I think they're totally correct, but I also understand the workings of bureaucracy and what I call “History Heathens.” Ira Hayes had a helluva difficult time convincing the USMC powers-that-be that the Marine at the base of the flagpole was Harlon Block, and not Hank Hansen, as Rene’ Gagnon had mistakenly identified him earlier.
Thanks much for referring me to those two links. Great stuff! Hope you and Mary can come back and visit the Left Coast again sometime. Life is good out here.
If you are in contact with Eric Krelle or Stephen Foley, or anyone else on that military forum, feel free to cut & paste or forward all my drivel to them. They may enjoy my comments.
Later, MB
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  • 1 year later...
  • 1 month later...

Stephen and all,

I for one find your research efforts fascinating and commendable and feel they are being conducted in the appropriately respectful manor. I have seen Dustin Spense's article and although it can be said that he is a bit unfamiliar with the field gear in use by U.S. Marines in 1945, his photo analysis is most helpful. This close up he provides of the image posted here, taken after the first flag raising, does appear to show Bradley, with his medical bags, second from left.

 

 

I think without a doubt that is John Bradley in the picture beside the guy with the soft cap.
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teufelhunde.ret

Much ado about nothing, there will always conspiracy theorists and those, who want to do revisionist history for the fun, notoriety or profit. This controversy has been going on for decades...

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ViewfinderGyrene

This Catholic Mass was celebrated by a Catholic Jesuit priest, Fr. Suver. It is said that before the battle he commented that he would say Mass atop the mountain when it was captured. The service took place between the first and second flag raisings, although some have said it was after the second flag was up. At that time it was generally not possible to conduct a Catholic Mass no more than one hour after mid-day, so it probably did take place between the first and second raisings. Bradley attended this Mass, according to a letter he sent his parents that he wrote on Feb. 26 1945. He is reputed to be in a picture of that scene. This photo I believe was taken by Louis Burmeister.

Stephen

 

Have any others been identified in the Fr. Suver photograph? Also were there any other Masses known to be held for the 28th/5th within 5 days of the flag raisings? I have a V-mail written by a Lt. in HQ/1/28 and at the bottom he says "PS, Mass in a shell crater the other day", and I that was written on the 28th of February. Could he be in the photograph as well?

 

~VFG

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hbtcoveralls

USMC confirms that the results of their investigation have identified the identity of the Marine in the photo was not John Bradley but was Pvt Harold Schultz. USA today has the following article about the results of the Marine Corps investigation that was assisted by the Smithsonian Institution. I thought you all might have missed it

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/06/23/flag-raiser-marine-iwo-jima-photo/86254440/

Tom Bowers

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