USMCman01 Posted November 15, 2014 Share #1 Posted November 15, 2014 Now I have knowledge on the background on cross-flap style and earlier marine canteens, but I don't know for sure if the p3 (no drain hole) was before or after the p4 (with drain hole). p3 canteen.htm p4 canteen.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fausto Posted November 16, 2014 Share #2 Posted November 16, 2014 Hi, not a U.S.M.C. canteen covers expert at all... I can just give to your attention this document, that I took at some time here on the Forum (please forgive me...) and the fact that we encounter both p3 and p4 with or without hole... Considering the date of the document, I would assume that at some point both p3 and p4 were modified. Don't ask me - I have not a good reply - which was converted first... Hope this can help... Fausto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted November 16, 2014 Share #3 Posted November 16, 2014 I learned something new today! Thanks.....Bobgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCman01 Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share #4 Posted November 16, 2014 Wow! Quite an interesting document. Thanks for replying and this definitely helped Fausto! From what I took out of this is the marines had covers with no holes in the bottom, so if they needed a funnel at all time they put it in the cover which was a later modification, so covers with no hole is earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fausto Posted November 16, 2014 Share #5 Posted November 16, 2014 Yes, I think you're right about covers with ho holes being earlier... Anyway I have in my collection a p2 and a p3 in mint condition, never issued, without "drain hole". So I guess that some (many?) p2 and p3 survived in depots or so, unmodified... Fausto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted November 17, 2014 Share #6 Posted November 17, 2014 Great discussion. I have suspected (not being dogmatic about it, by any means) that the first cross-flap Covers to be manufactured were ordered with funnel holes, mainly because of 2 very early Covers I came across years ago. Both have early "DQP 1942-1943" stamps on the right flaps' underside (might be a little hard to see in the photos): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted November 17, 2014 Share #7 Posted November 17, 2014 The undersides; I'm betting the left-hand Cover is the earliest variant because of the way it's constructed- more pics of its details to follow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted November 17, 2014 Share #8 Posted November 17, 2014 Rear view; the left Cover being noticeably different than the other "standard" Depot cross-flap; never seen another like it, before or since... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fausto Posted November 17, 2014 Share #9 Posted November 17, 2014 Great covers indeed... never seen one with that nice "reinforcement"... As for the funnel hole I think it is very difficult to say now how many p3 and p4 were made with the hole and how many were modified... Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly USMC Posted November 17, 2014 Share #10 Posted November 17, 2014 Wow! Quite an interesting document. I agree. Using the canteen cover as a funnel is definitely a field expedient way of conserving water. Probably not the most sanitary, but that is probably on some other un-discovered document. Great Info, Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted November 17, 2014 Share #11 Posted November 17, 2014 As for the funnel hole I think it is very difficult to say now how many p3 and p4 were made with the hole and how many were modified... Do you agree? Difficult indeed...actually, almost impossible The only reason I suspect that these two Covers are "originals" is the thread used to reinforce the holes is identical to the thread used in the Covers themselves. But even at that, it still remains just my own speculation (hopeful thinking ), not hard fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCman01 Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share #12 Posted November 17, 2014 I agree with 'Flage Guy, a drain hole cover with that early of markings must have been the earliest order of cross-flap canteen. What would that mean for cross-flaps with no hole which would be later production than the ones with drain holes, different maker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted November 18, 2014 Share #13 Posted November 18, 2014 USMCman- My belief (yup, more speculating) is that the funnel hole was simply abandoned in later production, possibly due to better methods of water dispensation (backpack-carried Lister Bags, large Collapsible Canteens, etc..) becoming available. Below is one of the later cross-flappers with no hole shown with other later-production Marine Corps canvas; the Leggings are dated July '43, the Grenade Carrier is dated '44. All pieces are made of the more grayish olive drab, which also was used with the mid-to-late War Boyt contracts, and all are Depot-made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted November 18, 2014 Share #14 Posted November 18, 2014 Close-up- construction is identical: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted November 18, 2014 Share #15 Posted November 18, 2014 The later Cover compared with one of the early Depot Covers with the funnel hole made of the old Marine Corps' "mustard O.D." canvas: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hudson Posted November 18, 2014 Share #16 Posted November 18, 2014 Those holes in the bottom of the cover are very impractical, because you had to take out the canteen cup. And anyone who has tried to remove a canteen cup knows that can be a tough operation. If you're in a hurry to refill your canteen that would be a really big hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCman01 Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share #17 Posted November 18, 2014 Bob, I feel your pain. I think it all adds up with the theory. The document Fausto provided (Thanks BTW~ ) shows a date of mid '43 which at the time the second pattern canteen cover with the short flaps (gloves?) and Lift-the-Dot snaps would have been the issued canteen of the time, at least before cross-flaps. As the document stated they were going to put drain holes in the bottoms of an unspecified canteen which at the time would have been the second pattern. (Again, most likely) Once the hole was put in the second pattern, which there is a drain hole second pattern, it was phased out by the cross-flap and since the drain hole was in implement in the production line the cross-flap was first created WITH the drain hole. Then as 'Flage Guy said, other more modern hydration systems were implemented so production stopped on the drain hole as it was just not needed making it later production than the drain hole cover. Obviously, all this is speculation based on some evidence, but I believe this could be the case unless proved otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCman01 Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share #18 Posted November 18, 2014 Also 'Flage Guy, thanks for the images of those canteen covers, they really are amazing pieces. By the way, can I just call you Jim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted November 19, 2014 Share #19 Posted November 19, 2014 No problem- most everybody else does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCman01 Posted November 19, 2014 Author Share #20 Posted November 19, 2014 Ok, thanks. What do you think of the theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted December 10, 2014 Share #21 Posted December 10, 2014 I am in complete agreement. Even in the middle of the War, there was much discussion and experimentation on streamlining methods of supply, and the funnel holes were just one of these experiments. Below is a photo I got from Olive Drab.com of one of the better methods of field distribution; the Lyster Bag. Note the spigots at the bottom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted December 10, 2014 Share #22 Posted December 10, 2014 Here is something I snagged years ago which I used to call a "Lyster Bag", but the proper title would be "Collapsible Canteen". These were produced in various sizes, and were made for both the Army and Marines. This one is harnessed musette-style, along with short hand grips, and will hold a couple of gallons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted December 10, 2014 Share #23 Posted December 10, 2014 The top section opened, revealing the bladder spigot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted December 10, 2014 Share #24 Posted December 10, 2014 Here is the bladder itself removed from the carrier. The cords at the neck are for securing to the mouth of the carrier, obviously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted December 10, 2014 Share #25 Posted December 10, 2014 For some reason, I think this spring-loaded spigot would be a little more agreeable to Canteen filling than them dang funnel holes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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