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Three Flags - Unknown


Reb8
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Ok, here is one for you, I was not to sure where to post this. Red, Green and Yellow/Orange flags the container has CS-90 stamped on it and each flag pole has stamped MC-270 on it. The WW2 Vet I bought it from said it had something to do with Tanks, but was not sure if or how they were used. He was Artillery at the battle of the bulge and did not remember how he ended up with it. Was he correct? and what are they? and how were they used?

 

Reb8

post-3217-1215045890.jpg

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brandon_rss18

noticed the colors are like a street light red(stop) yellow(caution) green(go or advance as normal) maybe these were used by the lead tank to alert the others behind them of their speed of advancement. Just a guess.

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noticed the colors are like a street light red(stop) yellow(caution) green(go or advance as normal) maybe these were used by the lead tank to alert the others behind them of their speed of advancement. Just a guess.

Do you think the Army does things that simple :)

It would be the first. I just found the ML Spec. on these. The guy was right. M-238 (Tank), MIL-F-40045.

 

 

Reb8

 

The Spec. Does not tell how to use them.

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brandon_rss18
Do you think the Army does things that simple :)

It would be the first. I just found the ML Spec. on these. The guy was right. M-238 (Tank), MIL-F-40045.

Reb8

Like I said, just a guess, Im an air corps guy, all that running around on the ground stuff is for the birds, or is it the other way around ;)

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I can't give you the WWII uses, but I can tell you that these are still used in the modern Army. On a tank gunnery range, the green means the weapons are clear, the red means that they are ready to fire. I can't remember exactly what the yellow was for, maybe ammo uploaded but the gun not ready to fire.

 

I am sure there are those on this forum that can tell you the proper use for WWII.

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I can't give you the WWII uses, but I can tell you that these are still used in the modern Army. On a tank gunnery range, the green means the weapons are clear, the red means that they are ready to fire. I can't remember exactly what the yellow was for, maybe ammo uploaded but the gun not ready to fire.

 

I am sure there are those on this forum that can tell you the proper use for WWII.

I was not sure these were Military at first. Do you think I should re- post?

 

Reb8

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I was not sure these were Military at first. Do you think I should re- post?

 

Reb8

 

 

Reb8,

Yes, try the vehicle section. I think someone can help you ID them more correctly.

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Proud Kraut
I can't give you the WWII uses, but I can tell you that these are still used in the modern Army. On a tank gunnery range, the green means the weapons are clear, the red means that they are ready to fire. I can't remember exactly what the yellow was for, maybe ammo uploaded but the gun not ready to fire.

 

I am sure there are those on this forum that can tell you the proper use for WWII.

 

 

I think Beast is right. In Germany (and we adopted a lot from the U.S.Army regarding this) yellow means your weapon jammed.

 

Lars

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I think Beast is right. In Germany (and we adopted a lot from the U.S.Army regarding this) yellow means your weapon jammed.

 

Lars

Thanks Lars, But now I have to throw you a curve. I did not spot this before. The flag looks yellow to me but on the on outside of the bag it says ORANGE. I guess if I stare at it long enough I can convince myself it's Orange. I went out and bought a Collector's guide today by Henri-Paul Enjames and on page 133 it has a great photo of this set and it says the Tank commander did use them to signal the others, but again it does not say what they indicated. What you and Beast said makes since to me. I was hoping there was a Tank commander on this board who may know for sure. Until I find out otherwise, I'm going with you and Beast.

Reb8

post-3217-1215215598.jpg

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DwightPruitt

They are definitely range flags for armored vehicles. Green meant weapons clear, vehicle not loaded with ammo. Yellow/orange meant vehicle loaded with ammo/weapons clear. Red meant weapons loaded preparing to fire.

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They are definitely range flags for armored vehicles. Green meant weapons clear, vehicle not loaded with ammo. Yellow/orange meant vehicle loaded with ammo/weapons clear. Red meant weapons loaded preparing to fire.

Thanks DwightPruitt

 

Reb8

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I was looking through my copy of TM 9-743, Light Armored Car M8 and Armored Utility Car M20 dated 21 February 1944. In the section of toolS and equipment stowage on the vehicle, section 29. RATIONS SIGNALING EQUIPMENT, AND SIGHTING EQUIPMENT your flags are listed. For these vehicles, the flags were stowed on the right side of crew compartment on ration box cover.

 

This kit consists of:

1-Case Cs-90

1-Flag Mc-273 (red)

1-Flag Mc-274 (orange)

1-Flag Mc-275 (Green)

3-Staff Mc-270

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They are definitely range flags for armored vehicles. Green meant weapons clear, vehicle not loaded with ammo. Yellow/orange meant vehicle loaded with ammo/weapons clear. Red meant weapons loaded preparing to fire.

 

So far everyone has focused on using these flags on a range.

 

But keep in mind they could have been used for signal purposes in a tactical environment, especially if radio silence was being observed.

 

Having said that, I don't have an example to provide of US forces doing this (Americans are notorious for being on the radio). But we do know that post war Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces used to practice this all the time. I believe the Chinese PLA did as well.

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Gil,

Your right, that probably was one of their intended uses. However, I haven't read or heard about their use in a non-training environment. When you read about some of the commanders in the 4th AD not using call signs, just first names, you wonder how often radio silence was observed. That being said, I have one WWII manual on armor operations that I will look through and see if it addressed.

 

BTW, as a Bradley Platoon leader I tried to use hand and arm signals to manuaver my vehicles. I looked like some deranged bird trying to take flight! :lol:

 

So far everyone has focused on using these flags on a range.

 

But keep in mind they could have been used for signal purposes in a tactical environment, especially if radio silence was being observed.

 

Having said that, I don't have an example to provide of US forces doing this (Americans are notorious for being on the radio). But we do know that post war Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces used to practice this all the time. I believe the Chinese PLA did as well.

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It wouldn't be the first time that the US Army provided equipment that was never actually used in the field! LOL!

 

Now that I think about it, I'd swear I've seen either a pre-war or early war stateside photo of an M3A3 or M5 Stuart tank on maneuvers with the tank commander signalling with flags. You could tell it wasn't combat because the tank was almost pristine clean. It had just come over a slight rise and was one of those cool action photos they played up to the public to prove that our Army was on the ball!

 

This is probably one of those things they practiced in training and never actually did in the field.

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Ok, I looked in FM 17-5 "ARMORED FORCE FIELD MANUAL, ARMORED FORCE DRILL" dated January 12, 1942 and it does refer to the use of a signal flag to control movement.

 

d. Flag Signals - (1) Flag signals are used for control and transmissio of commands. Their use is limited to important signals where a positive visual method is desired. They should be supplemented when praticable by other means such as the radio and arm and hand signals.

(2) Each combat vehicle is equipped with one yellow flag.

 

It continues on describing the signals used, but only uses the one yellow flag.

 

However in Change 1 dated March 7, 1942 it describes the use of all three flags (green, orange, red)

 

FM 17-5 C 1

ARMORED FORCE FIELD MANUAL

ARMORED FORCE DRILL

Changes) - WAR DEPARTMENT,

No. 1 WASHINGTON, March 7, 1942.

FM 17-5, January 12, 1942, is changed as follows:

4. SIGNALS.

****

d. Flag signals.

* * * * »

(2) Each combat vehicle is equipped with three solid color flags, orange, red, and green.

(3) Flags are displayed vertically overhead; in tanks through the top of the turret.

(4) They may be held either stationary or waved to attract attention.

(5) All signals are executed as soon as they are understood.

(6) Subordinate leaders repeat signals.

(7) The following code will be vised:

(a) Enemy in sight.—Red.

(&) All clear, ready, or understood.—Green.

© Disregard or vehicle out of action.—Orange.

(d) Assembly or close.—Orange and green.

(e) Extend.—Red and orange.

(f) Disperse.—Red and green.

(tf) Gas.—Red, orange, and green.

(8) Additional flag signals may be improvised.

e. Light signals.— (1) For night traffic control lights see FM 29-5.

(2) In giving signals described below, face toward those who are to receive the signal. Hold and move 4ke light horizontally. Do not point it upward. When giving light, signals under blackout conditions use a light the lens of which has been covered with suitable colored material. Sub¬ordinate leaders repeat signals and pass them along the column.

446229°—42

 

 

So at least there is a "school solution" to the use of the flags.

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I was looking through my copy of TM 9-743, Light Armored Car M8 and Armored Utility Car M20 dated 21 February 1944. In the section of toolS and equipment stowage on the vehicle, section 29. RATIONS SIGNALING EQUIPMENT, AND SIGHTING EQUIPMENT your flags are listed. For these vehicles, the flags were stowed on the right side of crew compartment on ration box cover.

 

This kit consists of:

1-Case Cs-90

1-Flag Mc-273 (red)

1-Flag Mc-274 (orange)

1-Flag Mc-275 (Green)

3-Staff Mc-270

Thanks

Would be great to have a photo of them being used. We need a Forum we can post U.S. Military developed items never used :)..LOL

 

Reb8

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This is not the photo that I was looking for, but it does show a signal flag on the turret of an M3 Stuart during training or maneuvers at Ft. Knox, KY. This is a US Army photo that was downloaded from Wikipedia Commons. Given the darker color in the photo, it could be either the green or the red (red can show up dark in black and white photos.)

M3_Stuart_small.JPG

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DwightPruitt
So at least there is a "school solution" to the use of the flags.

That reminds me of a fake grave I saw once at Holder Complex. The epitaph read:

 

"Here lie the bones of Lieutenant Jones,

a graduatate of this institution.

He died last night

In his first firefight

Using the school solution." :)

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