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Star and Indian Head Insignia of the 2nd Infantry Division, AEF


world war I nerd

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world war I nerd

Photo No. 183: Silk screened or printed and a hand painted example of post war manufactured star and Indian heads.

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world war I nerd

Photo No. 187: The 2nd Division’s iconic star and Indian head forged under shot and shell in the trenches of the Western Front has steadfastly soldiered on in every conflict in which America has been involved. Today it is still proudly worn on the uniform of service men fortunate enough to be posted to the 2nd Infantry Division of the U.S. Army.

 

My apologies for creating such a long post; however, I do hope you found it informative.

 

Thanks for looking … World War I Nerd

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Garth Thompson

This is an excellent must read post for any patch collector. I'm moving it to the SSI section for more visibility/

Garth

 

**PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER HAS SADLY PASSED AWAY**

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  • 5 months later...
Forum Manager

Guys, I just had to edit this great thread and take out photos that belonged to a specific website. It's a shame as there is some great info here, and anything that needs to be removed just hurts it.

 

In the future please check with websites and ask permission to share their information, as the vast majority are more then happy to share, but they are not real happy when they see their work being used somewhere else.

 

World War 1 nerd, listed links to the original website, which is usually cool but it wasn't this time.

 

Again please just ask websites if it is okay to share the information here in the USMF.


 

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world war I nerd

Just for the record, I did ask for and get permission to use the images that were removed. I realize that memories can fade over time and there was a significant time lapse between the date I asked, and the date that the images in question were actually posted.

 

Anyway, here are copies of the relevant correspondence between the two parties in which I thought I received permission to post the images. I apologize if my actions in any way embarrassed U.S. Militaria Forum...

 

World War I Nerd

 

My email dated, October 27, 2012

 

Happy to help Mitch,

if you have any further questions in the future, don't hesitate to ask. Although I can't guarantee that I'll know the answer, I can at least offer an opinion. I visited your website about a year ago, and downloaded a number of photos, etc. to use a personal reference. I have just written something about how the 2nd Division's Indian head insignia originated, which I submitted to a magazine for possible publication, and was looking for photos of soldiers wearing the 2nd Division's insignia. I downloaded several photos from your website. Are the photos owned by you or are they photos that you have come across during your own research? I ask because I need high resolution scans of whatever images I select to illustrate the article. If you do own any of them would I be able to obtain proper scans and use them with your permission and credit you as their source -
Brian

 

Reply to the above email dated October 28, 2012

 

Hi Brian,

 

I am happy to help in any way I can with images. I put all that copyright stuff on the site simply to try to prevent them from appearing on other sites without my knowledge. It happens. I have enough images on the site that I have begun to lose track of them. Any that say ’Scan Copyright’ on them I own original photographs, postcards - or the negatives - for certain. I scanned them. Some that don’t say that I also own original photographs. Early on I just put the copyright notice on them. There are also images that were used with permission. So I don’t own originals of them. I know the owners of the original photographs and they probably would be happy to provide a scan as well, if I can still contact them. These would be 2nd Engineers wearing the insignia - Mitch

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WOW!!!!! How Did I miss this one? Your work untangles the web of confusion that surrounds the WWI 2ndDivision SSI. I'm not a patch collector per se, my interest being mainly in the 4th Brigade. The creation of these insignia, especially in post-Armistace France and Occupied Germany has intrigued U.S. militaria collectors for many, many years. You have answered many questions with this outstanding work. Sad that there appears to have been territorial dispute at its finish. Thanks again for another most helpful historical work. Semper Fi.........Bobgee

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  • 3 months later...

My grandfather was in E Battery 15th FA. This is one of his patches. Can anybody tell me more about it?

 

Anyone is welcome to use this image. All I ask is they credit 2nd Lieutenant Roscoe Emerson Stewart, as it was his and his service deserves respect and recognition. Thanks all.

 

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  • 2 months later...

WW1 Nerd,

 

That was an AMAZING Monograph and I thank you so very much for taking the time to post it all, VERY informative and well researched. I enjoyed it thoughly (and I really don't study nor collected 2nd Div stuff).

 

I am attaching an image of a helmet that sold on ebay several years ago for your consideration. What I do know is that F Troop, 2d US Cavalry was operating with the 2nd Division at the time the armistice went into effect. That could explain the backless indian head (but no star). The horsehead may or may not be related. As I also do not know if the orange paint (or it could be a werid aged red when one sees that it was used for the French and US flags as well) for other stuff was chosen for a specific reason or that was just all the artist had. I would be very curious to know your thoughts on this item.

 

Respectfully,

Chris Fischer

F-Troop

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world war I nerd

Chris,

 

Thank you for reading and enjoying what turned out to be an impossibly long post. I appreciate your comments.

 

Also thanks for materially adding the excellent Troop F, 2nd Cavalry Regiment helmet to the post!

 

First off, I wasn't aware that a U.S. cavalry unit was attached to the 2nd Division, so thank you for that information.

 

In my opinion, the style, design and ageing of the helmet all look good for an original WW I era painted helmet. I certainly do not see any red flags based on the two posted photos.

 

At first, I thought that maybe the 'orange' paint was originally yellow to represent the cavalry branch of service, but it wouldn't make any sense having yellow, white and blue American and French flags!

 

The orange color was probably the results of poor quality paint that over time faded to orange or, like you said, maybe orange was the closest color to red that the artist had on hand at the time of painting.

 

Nevertheless, a very nice helmet ... Brian

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Generally the troops of the 2d Cavalry were attached to wohomeber was in the lead of the advance as they were Corps troops. The fact that F Troop was with the 2d at 11:11:11 comes from the Troops Commander's own mouth. Ernest N. Harmon.

 

I agree, the helmet is post hostilites (the two banners are the battle streamers St. Mihel and Meause-Argonne) but everything points to legit. The only ytthing I find weird is that the 2d Cav was never officailyl part of the 2nd Division and was withdrawn and sent back to Corps after the armistice. So not sure what about the 2nd Div that they trooper fpund so appealing that he wanted to comenmorate it other than that is where he was when it all ended.

 

Chris Fischer

F-Troop

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world war I nerd

Chris,

 

Perhaps something significant happened to that particular cavalryman during the time F Troop supported the 2nd Division, i.e. first & only time in combat, wounded, decorated, etc.

 

The other possibility is that the Indian head was a nod to the fierce opponents they faced during the cavalry's glory days while settling the wild west?

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True, but you got to admit its a very 2nd ID looking Indian Head! Combine that with a star in top and I just have to wonder (and still do) LOL. Again, best I can come up with is that was where he was when the last shell fell. I can find no relationship with the 2nd Div Indian Head and an horse-head. Not even in the Divisional HQ Troop so its alot of mystery and speculation on this one.

 

Thanks for your input on it. I figured if anyone would have any insight into it that would be you!

 

Chris Fischer

F-Troop

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  • 3 weeks later...

Those look to me like the "standard issue" (dangerous term...) made in Germany 2d Division stars, embroidered on shirt material. I've seen one or 2 sheets for sale, but don't own a sheet.

 

Nice to have, and one of these days, I'd like to add a set to my collection.

 

Steve

I remember:

Chris Ingrassia (9/11) CPT Tristan Aitken (OIF, 2003)

MAJ Paul Syverson (OIF, 2004) CPT Tom Miller (OIF, 2005)

SSG Scottie Bright (OIF, 2005) CPT Chris Petty (OIF, 2006)

MAJ Hurley Shields (OIF, 2008)

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________


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  • 2 weeks later...

Fantastic post. It has answered many questions I had, and many I never knew I had, about the Indian Head patches of the 2nd Division.

Many thanks for your work.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm an admitted beginner going through a large militaria collection for my brother-in-law. I wonder about these Indian head patches. I've heard so many stories about repros and wouldn't want to trade or sell anything that isn't legit.

The collector that these came from passed away a while ago. He seemed to be a hoarder as well as a collector. We have found many quality pieces but sone like these make me wonder. We have a couple of local collectors helping but thought I'd ask here. I've been lurking and have seen the expertise on these forums.

 

What does anyone think these are. The back image I have was too big so that may come later. The paper typed piece makes me think they came right from a factory. I can handle the truth.

 

Thanks,

VinnyH

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  • 3 months later...
BigJohn#3RD

I'm an admitted beginner going through a large militaria collection for my brother-in-law. I wonder about these Indian head patches. I've heard so many stories about repros and wouldn't want to trade or sell anything that isn't legit.

The collector that these came from passed away a while ago. He seemed to be a hoarder as well as a collector. We have found many quality pieces but sone like these make me wonder. We have a couple of local collectors helping but thought I'd ask here. I've been lurking and have seen the expertise on these forums.

 

What does anyone think these are. The back image I have was too big so that may come later. The paper typed piece makes me think they came right from a factory. I can handle the truth.

 

Thanks,

VinnyH

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The two patches there are what is often termed 20/30s Veteran Patches but there are many between the war 2nd Division Soldier pictured wearing the Black Background Shield Patch. Each of your patches is to a separate company within the 9th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Brigade (Regulars), 2nd Division. The purple pentagon patch is for the Machine Gun Company of the 9th Inf and the green pentagon background patch if for the supply company. Hope this helps

John

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The two patches there are what is often termed 20/30s Veteran Patches but there are many between the war 2nd Division Soldier pictured wearing the Black Background Shield Patch. Each of your patches is to a separate company within the 9th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Brigade (Regulars), 2nd Division. The purple pentagon patch is for the Machine Gun Company of the 9th Inf and the green pentagon background patch if for the supply company. Hope this helps

John

Thank you John, the info is greatly appreciated. They look so new I have to make sure they aren't repros. I believe a lot of items I'm going through, patches, pins, medals, q-bars, etc are a mix of mostly original and new/old stock. We are keeping at least 1 of everything and selling the dupes.

Best Always,

Vinny

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17th Field Artillery patch I believe

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Ed Hicks

WARPATH Military Collectibles

819 Hope Mills Road

Fayetteville, North Carolina

(910) 425-7000

 

Always buying U.S. Airborne & Vietnam Special Forces artifacts and groupings, Painted and Rare U.S. Helmets; U.S. Valor Medal Groupings, Fine Swords...

Buying or trading for my collection: 1950s-1970s Vietnam era Rolex & Tudor Watches...

Contact me before you sell... [email protected]<script data-cfhash='f9e31' type="text/javascript">/* */</script>

 

My Web Sites: http://www.battlefieldmuseum.org

 

http://www.warpathmilitaria.com 

 

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