2nd Model USMC "Frogskin" Cover - The Rarest?

[GIJive]

Studying these for quite a while now it appears from the many helmets shown here, and from the covers seen alone for sale, that the World War II produced Second Model of the USMC "Frogskin" cover (foliage slits in the crown only - not flaps) may be the least seen and possibly the rarest overall found by collectors these days. I have actually talked with some collectors who say they have these in their collections, only to get replies back that they are actually the Third Model or the later 1953 produced types.

 

USMC 2ND COVER.jpg

 

USMC 2ND COVER2.jpg

 

From those of you who like to collect these covers, is that your impression also, or are these as readily found as the 1st and 3rd in your opinions?

 

Another question...

 

There are two distinct roller patterns found on these covers. While the overall pattern is the exact same, all of the shapes are slightly different in each of the patterns. It has been my experience to date that the designs remain constant and never mix with the other. Here is one of the the most different shaped design on each. These are only my names for them in order to keep them straight -

 

 

"Design A" - The most commonly seen used on helmet covers it seems, also seen on all 1953 produced as well -

 

DSCN0864 - Copy.JPG DSCN0868 - Copy.JPG

 

"Design B" - Found less on covers, but seen more on uniforms and shelters it seems, WWII only-not seen on the later 1953 covers -

 

DSCN0892 - Copy.JPG DSCN0897 - Copy.JPG

 

 

I have seen the "Design A" on the 1st, 3rd and 1953 models of covers to date. The "Design B" I have seen on the 1st and 2nd to date, would think they would be on the 3rd as well but have not seen it that I can recall.

 

Does anyone have a "Design B" 3rd Model to show?

 

To date I have only seen the 2nd Model in the "Design B". Does anyone have a 2nd Model in the "Design A" to show?

 

 

Just wondering if the design shapes could also be tied to specific models/time produced also.

 

 

Thanks

pump150,

 

When you refer to "roller patterns" are you referring to the stencils that were probably used during the printing process? These could have varied by manufacturer and the particular run of HBT camouflage cloth that was used to fashion the helmet covers. The covers would have been cut from large bolts of cloth and the patterns on the bolts of cloth would have slight variations in shape based on the stencils used during the printing process. It is entirely possible that the 1953 dated covers were manufactured for the government using existing surplus stocks of the camouflage HBT cloth that was printed during WWII. Not sure what you mean that the patterns stay constant and don't mix with each other.

[pump 150]

No problem GI, I'll try to explain a little better. Still, the 2nd model is the least encountered by collectors it seems, and to date so far it does show a single interesting characteristic compared to all other USMC Frogskin covers.

 

Yes, the "roller pattern" would refer to the actual shaped stencils in the printing process as these were applied to the HBT cloth. Although there are slight variations seen as how they are applied in spacing by how it goes throughout the printing process, the shapes stay the same.

 

Studying these for quite a while now, there are two distinct stencil shaped designs in the roller pattern (what I call A and B in order to tell them apart) where every shape is just a little different indicating two main "roller patterns" were used. While the overall camouflage pattern is identical, the shape differences fall into either the A or B and remain together, not mixed within the same bolt of cloth. Each supplier it would seem either had the A or B roller designs.

 

It has already been found that these helmet covers and the uniforms were produced by the Marine Corps so the cloth would be sent to them and then cut for sewing. As the helmet cover is made from two pieces of cloth, to date I have not seen a cover mixed with "half A - half B" either, it's one or the other. You can find varying shades per side due to the dying process while printing each lot, but not the design difference.

 

What is known so far from viewing these is -

 

The "Design A" is the most commonly seen used in helmet covers. This includes 1st & 3rd model WWII helmet covers, all 1953 Blue Anchor models, as well as all of the last 1964 marked models.

 

The "Design B" is seen used only on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd model WWII helmet covers, it is not seen used on post WWII helmet covers. To date all 2nd model USMC helmet covers seen use only this design.

 

Tying this into the pinned thread on which models were really produced first, and trying to find some more answers as per the designs.

 

Why don't we see a mixture of the two designs on the helmet covers like we do in the colored dye lots, did specific suppliers supply different USMC manufacturing locations for making these?

 

With so much cloth flowing into the depot, and most it seems to be the "Design A" type, why are all 2nd model WWII helmet covers only found in the "Design B"? Did a specific manufacturing location only make the 2nd model, and in what period of the war?

 

Also looking to see if anyone has a 2nd model in their collection with the "Design A", or any Frogskin cover with a mixed half's of "A-B" in order to debunk any of these thoughts....

[GIJive]

pump 150,

 

Okay, I see what you mean. I have several WWII HBT camouflage uniforms that have several "slight" variations of the two shapes you describe. That is what I meant by the position of the stencils (or rollers as you describe them) being positioned slightly differently during a particular run of cloth. The two patterns wouldn't mix in one bolt of cloth because the camouflage pattern is repeated approximately every 16 inches or so and one type stencil would be used to print the entire run of material. Some claim the base color has to be visible around the particular two- color design you describe in order to be genuine. That is nonsense, in my opinion, it depends on how the stencils were cut and aligned during the printing process whether or not the colors touch or the base color separates the two- color scheme. I can post pictures later of several slight variations, if you are interested, but you already alluded to the slight variations in your original post.

 

I am not convinced that you can "pigeon hole" the covers by "Pattern A" or "Pattern B" as you are attempting to do, because the covers were constructed with whatever material was sent to the manufacturer of the covers. Additionally, I am not convinced that the order of 1st Pattern, 2nd Pattern, etc. that many collectors subscribe to is actually correct. You even agreed to that in one of your posts after you made this initial post in 2014. The drawing of the helmet cover pattern dated 1942 shows slits in the crown and flaps. No one, to my knowledge, has been able to determine when the covers with the slits in the crown only were made. They could have been made post WWII by a different manufacturer or with a different run of material or they could have been made during WWII? The reason I mentioned post WWII is that they appear to me to be more similar in construction to the 1953 dated covers with the no slits in the flaps. Unless someone comes up with the specifications and dates of manufacture of the slight variations in construction of these covers, it is all speculation. The two known types that can be documented by the original drawings available and WWII photographic evidence are the type with the slits in the crown and flaps and the type with no slits. It is pretty well documented that these were WWII manufactured and you're observations already documented that both designs appear on these types of covers.

 

I applaud your interest in these iconic pieces of Marine Corps issue gear and your dedication to solving the unanswered questions that surround them.

[olivedrab1970]

No one, to my knowledge, has been able to determine when the covers with the slits in the crown only were made. They could have been made post WWII by a different manufacturer or with a different run of material or they could have been made during WWII? The reason I mentioned post WWII is that they appear to me to be more similar in construction to the 1953 dated covers with the no slits in the flaps. Unless someone comes up with the specifications and dates of manufacture of the slight variations in construction of these covers, it is all speculation.

 

As I had posted in this thread earlier, I have a (KNOWN AS) third pattern camouflage cover with slits on top and no slits on the flaps. I also have a pair of P44 camouflage combat pants that are an exact match to the pattern, material and colors as the helmet cover. I am assuming that these where the last camouflage covers produced during operations for the PTO along with the P44 camouflage uniforms. It would make sense that the fourth pattern covers would be made the same in 1953, seeing this would have been the familiar pattern to have been made towards the end of WW2 and quite possibly Blue Anchor made them (Complete Speculation).The schematic showing the early diagram for upper foliage slits and lower slits on the flaps as you stated is 1942. I had read somewhere that The Marine Corps had done away with the slits in finding that moving branches and shrubs did not work effectively in providing concealment. Why then they brought the slit pattern back late in the war and again in 1953 would be a mystery????

[pump 150]

I could not agree more on the placement of the shapes, it all depends on how it is laid out in the roller pattern of the run of each bolt. Knowing the shapes though does show there are two distinct variations of original dseign type seen.

 

The whole basis for the pinned thread on 1,2,3 was to show that those numbers are strictly a collector generated slang, and as has been shown, has no bearing on which order these were produced.

 

The 2nd model is unique as you stated as it's construction is basically the template for all future helmet covers made post WWII for the M-1 helmet.

 

 

 

Could it have been a post war unmarked USMC Depot produced cover made alongside the 1953 Blue Anchor contract???

 

The USMC had access to both designs of Frogskin during WWII, how come all 2nd models seen to date in collections are only "Design B"???

 

The only truly confirmed WWII seen covers are the so called 1st & 3rd just from available photos, but the 2nd would be easily confused if not clearly seeing the flaps or having the vets complete helmet in hand.

 

As said by olivedrab and I have also thought maybe a possibility that the 2nd was a very late war addition in adding the foliage slits back to the crown only.

 

So far at least it appears that the 2nd model does seem to be the lesser seen model overall, and all of the 1953 and 1964 dated Frogskin covers seen are only of the "Design A".

 

Looking for all examples and info to be shown by those interested to see if this trend on designs and models continues to hold true or can be thrown out in order to help solve some of the many remaining questions......lol. Thanks all for the interest!