pump 150 Posted October 19, 2014 Share #1 Posted October 19, 2014 Studying these for quite a while now it appears from the many helmets shown here, and from the covers seen alone for sale, that the World War II produced Second Model of the USMC "Frogskin" cover (foliage slits in the crown only - not flaps) may be the least seen and possibly the rarest overall found by collectors these days. I have actually talked with some collectors who say they have these in their collections, only to get replies back that they are actually the Third Model or the later 1953 produced types. From those of you who like to collect these covers, is that your impression also, or are these as readily found as the 1st and 3rd in your opinions? Another question... There are two distinct roller patterns found on these covers. While the overall pattern is the exact same, all of the shapes are slightly different in each of the patterns. It has been my experience to date that the designs remain constant and never mix with the other. Here is one of the the most different shaped design on each. These are only my names for them in order to keep them straight - "Design A" - The most commonly seen used on helmet covers it seems, also seen on all 1953 produced as well - "Design B" - Found less on covers, but seen more on uniforms and shelters it seems, WWII only-not seen on the later 1953 covers - I have seen the "Design A" on the 1st, 3rd and 1953 models of covers to date. The "Design B" I have seen on the 1st and 2nd to date, would think they would be on the 3rd as well but have not seen it that I can recall. Does anyone have a "Design B" 3rd Model to show? To date I have only seen the 2nd Model in the "Design B". Does anyone have a 2nd Model in the "Design A" to show? Just wondering if the design shapes could also be tied to specific models/time produced also. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted October 19, 2014 Share #2 Posted October 19, 2014 Here is a picture of my "second model" without slits in the flaps. Taken from the serie I posted in your other thread about frogskin covers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share #3 Posted October 19, 2014 Thanks Andrei, yep yours is one of the ones I studied as well. Can you confirm which shaped design your 2nd model is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted October 19, 2014 Share #4 Posted October 19, 2014 Design "B" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpstout Posted October 20, 2014 Share #5 Posted October 20, 2014 Bill, let me throw this cover in for posterity, issued in early 1949 and used until 1952 by one of our KW vets...let me add this is a bonafide WWII cover, leftover and used postwar as many of these were. No EGA and not 1953. Thanks, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpstout Posted October 20, 2014 Share #6 Posted October 20, 2014 Topside... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpstout Posted October 20, 2014 Share #7 Posted October 20, 2014 Mr. PACMAN... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted October 20, 2014 Share #8 Posted October 20, 2014 Very nice cover JP ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share #9 Posted October 20, 2014 Another one of the hidden pearls in your collection JP! Thanks for showing, this one at least still falls in line with the other 2-B's shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anton67 Posted October 21, 2014 Share #10 Posted October 21, 2014 Here is my 2nd pattern. I whole heatedly agree that these are the most rare of the WWII USMC covers. You almost never see these. I think that the NO SLITS covers are the easiest to find and the ones with SLITS IN TOP AND FLAPS are the 2nd easiest to find. Oh and it is funny that this is the first USMC cover I ever purchased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share #11 Posted October 22, 2014 Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated...Could you tell me which design type yours is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Bast Posted October 22, 2014 Share #12 Posted October 22, 2014 Great thread and discussion - thanks for pictures and perspectives on these second pattern covers. I wish topics like these would finally put to rest the notion that the "Pac-Man" pattern is somehow a sure sign of a reproduction, but sadly I'm sure we'll continue to see the myth live on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc grunt Posted October 22, 2014 Share #13 Posted October 22, 2014 Mr. PACMAN... This is NOT Pacman. This one of two shapes that are found on an original USMC helmet cover. Both shapes are clearly distinct from the Pacman that is found on repro covers. The distinction between the three shapes are covered at the following link: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/174440-usmc-wwii-3rd-pattern-helmet-cover-wrong-pattern-stitch/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc grunt Posted October 22, 2014 Share #14 Posted October 22, 2014 Great thread and discussion - thanks for pictures and perspectives on these second pattern covers. I wish topics like these would finally put to rest the notion that the "Pac-Man" pattern is somehow a sure sign of a reproduction, but sadly I'm sure we'll continue to see the myth live on.... The "Pac-Man" (crescent shape) is, indeed and in fact, a sure sign that can be used to distinguish a reproduction form an original. The distinctions can be seen at the following link: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/174440-usmc-wwii-3rd-pattern-helmet-cover-wrong-pattern-stitch/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpstout Posted October 22, 2014 Share #15 Posted October 22, 2014 A good point, grunt, I don't disagree. And you are correct that there is a definite distinction between the repop and original based on what I prefer to call pacman-like shaped pattern. I always thought the term pac-man odd 'cause I see a moon, lol. I also have run into collectors who are not familiar with pacman. Technically speaking, however, the shape on the reproduction is not a pac-man either since it does not have the straight edge mouth us old gamers were used to. But, I won't quibble. I simply refer to both designs as pacman-like so we are talking about the similar shape when discussing these covers. Or "crescent moon" for the younger set. But, yes, there are differences that a collector should be familiar with and the link very much appreciated.... pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share #16 Posted October 22, 2014 Yes, this is the shape most associated with the PACMAN label, and like JP believe it may be the best way to find it on a cover for collectors, however agree with both JP and USMC GRUNT it most difinitley can be used to tell a reproduction. Just about all designs on the two roller patterns vary slightly, mostly just more rounded or sharper corners etc, (look at the design around the one mentioned, it varies in shape ever slightly also). Only picked this one as it is the most changed and easy to tell apart. So far it seems that while the spacing may vary, even on covers of the same design due to how the roller applied the camo, each of the two patterns do not mix with each other. Have not seen my so called "Design B" on any 1953 produced yet, possibly signaling WWII only produced. And all I have been able to witness of the 2nd model so far are of the "B". Wondering if all 2nd's out there in collections are of this design or not? And are there any 3rd models like it? Know you collect these GRUNT, was hoping you would chime in here also, what's your thoughts? Or anyone else's as well....Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Bast Posted October 22, 2014 Share #17 Posted October 22, 2014 Point taken, USMC Grunt. To clarify, after reading through the countless discussions on the USMF over the years, I think there's a trend to automatically generalize all pac-man/crescent shape patterns as a reproduction. As Pat stats above, (and my original point) both the real and fakes have a somewhat similar, "pac-man like shaped pattern." Your previous topic does help educate us on the difference in shapes between the originals and reproductions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man860 Posted October 23, 2014 Share #18 Posted October 23, 2014 Cool thread! Just for the sake of clarification: Type1=No Slits Type2=Slits in crown only Type3=Slits in crown & flaps Type4=KW 1953 All my type 1 & 2 covers are Design "B" My type 3 is Design "A" My type 4 is Design "A" I agree Type 2 covers turn up with less frequency than Type 1 or 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkash23686 Posted October 23, 2014 Share #19 Posted October 23, 2014 I've had more luck finding 2 than any other kind. Most of the USMC lids I've owned has type 2 covers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share #20 Posted October 23, 2014 Thanks for the great info guys! jkash, do you happen to have any of these still in your collection, or photos remaining to tell what design type they were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkash23686 Posted October 23, 2014 Share #21 Posted October 23, 2014 Thats the only pic I have left. Nice salty un-messed with lid I picked up from AGM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share #22 Posted October 26, 2014 Great used example jkash, thanks for showing! Only collecting helmet covers and not the uniform items, "Flage Guy was nice enough to advise me that there are three known and possibly a fourth producer of the HBT "Frogskin" camo cloth during the war. So far it is unknown who or how many producers of the helmet covers there were in WWII with no documents to be found. If this trend would continue in specific design types being found in specific model types it might possibly shed some light a bit. It does seem that the same design type is used consistant so far as these are made from two half's, they are not seen with a mixed set of designs as if large bolts of material from all sources were shared among makers of the covers at least. (If anyone has a photo of one please post!!) Only theories and 'WHAT IF'S" to think about for those interested, and as always can be thrown out with finding one that goes against it, but that's great too! Combining this and the previous thread on which came first....What if- the first produced were as of the 1942 specs (Model 3), the producer gets cloth from one source - "Design A"... A bit later another producer is needed to fill the demand, they make their's for some reason without the flap foliage slits, (maybe deemed not needed, save cost, etc....Model 2). They get their supply of cloth exclusively from another source - "Design B". Possibly explain why less overall are seen by collectors it seems... Short time later all foliage slits are dropped (Model 1)...both producers make these until the end of the war explaining why both designs seen and large volume available and used later after WWII. Just some thoughts on where I was going here with all this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivedrab1970 Posted April 28, 2016 Share #23 Posted April 28, 2016 Hello' late to this thread and new to the forum. I am a former Devil Dog (3rd Gen.) and avid WW2 USMC collector as well. I have had the bug from Frog Skin helmet covers and uniforms for some time! I have a pair of P44 combat pants that are practically MINT along with a MINT helmet cover that is the exact same material and pattern. It is a second pattern cover with top foliage slits and no slits in the lower flaps. It is an EXACT match to the P44 combat trousers. I tried to upload a pic but the file is to big, any suggestions? Thanks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share #24 Posted April 28, 2016 Hello olivedrab, and welcome. Thanks for bringing this thread back to the top as I was thinking of doing so with a mint example of a Second model just seen sold on eBay...still in the "Design B" pattern as all others seen to date of this Model. Would be very interested in seeing your photos, however here they need to be downsized in order to fit. If you can't get them downsized then feel free to PM me so we can get them added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaher55 Posted April 29, 2016 Share #25 Posted April 29, 2016 Great thread to bump.... Thought I had a great collection of these back in the early days. Early 2000's but then I realized I got took, twice in the Ebay. Not no more, have about 6 of these now and they are all the real deal thanks to you guys. I'll post some up later when I get time. These covers are not so simple............ Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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