SEEKING INFORMATION ON LEFT LOOKING NAVY EAGLE HAT BADGES

[Jay Seay]

Greetings

Does anyone have information on start and end dates of the left looking

Eagle, Navy hat badges for officers? I understand they were to signify the

United States keeping a watchful eye on Germany, and they were pre WW2. Any information is appreciated. Thanks for any help.

J

 

[29navy]

The end date is 1941 when the 1941 Uniform Regs stated that it should be right facing. It had to do with following Heraldic "rules" which in which it should face the right toward the wearers sword arm.

 

Charlie

[Dave]

There's a really good thread about these if you're looking for examples. As far as the dates, Charlie got them. The direction of the eagle's head had nothing to do with "keeping an eye on Germany" though...that's urban legend and simply untrue.

 

Dave

[Justin B.]

Here is what "The Bureau of Navigation Bulletin," April 1941, said about the eagle:

 

 

Of course, providing the owner with "a reasonable period of service" was pretty broad, and some used their old-style cap badges throughout the WW2 years.

 

[Justin B.]

"Spruance, however, would not spend money on himself. He would not buy new clothes despite Margaret's demands that he renovate his wardrobe. He owned but one admirals uniform cap, bought when the eagle's head on the cap device faced left. Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox early in the war decided that the eagle should properly face to starboard, and naval officers bought new devices facing in the authorized direction. But not Spruance. In a letter to Margaret during the war he grumbled that a new cap cost forty dollars, so he intended to shine up old faithful and continue wearing it. The weathered eagle looked over his port shoulder throughout the war."

--The Quiet Warrior:A Biography of Admiral Raymond A. Spruance by Thomas Buell.

[Jay Seay]

Charlie, Dave, Justin, thank you gentlemen for the great info from each. Great pics too. I have one that I didn't

post because I know this is for U.S. military items only. It is a K.G. Luke. I am aware how highly counterfeited

those items are, however I bought it from a retired Navy veteran who told me he bought it while on R&R or TDY,

don't recall which, while he was in Australia in the late 60's during the Viet Nam conflict from a retired Aussie veteran.

I have bought several items from him over the years, all were good, so I feel this one most likely is. Can anyone direct

me to a site where I could get a K.G. Luke left looking Eagle hat badge possibly authenticated? Thanks.

 

J

[Dave]

Well, go ahead and post it...this forum is for US militaria, including foreign manufacture...

[Jay Seay]

Thanks.

[Dave]

Hmmm...I've never seen a left facing KG Luke device before, but this just looks off (granted, I'm on my phone....) hopefully someone else who has one can chime in.

[jweitkamp]

I believe this is a good piece; the hallmarks are identical to those on my dads wings purchased in Sydney in late March, early April 42 upon his return from Java.

[Dave]

I believe this is a good piece; the hallmarks are identical to those on my dads wings purchased in Sydney in late March, early April 42 upon his return from Java.

 

I agree the hallmarks look spot on. However, my concern is that it looks like the anchors were sand cast and the color of the eagle is just...odd. I'm not saying it's bad. At the same time, I don't know if I'd buy it if it were offer to me, but that's 100% just my opinion off of seeing a couple of photos.

 

Would love to see if someone else has something similar. I'd LOVE to have my cautions put to rest on it.

[unclegrumpy]

 

My concern is that it looks like the anchors were sand cast.

 

Would love to see if someone else has something similar. I'd LOVE to have my cautions put to rest on it.

The anchors bother me as well, plus the three nuts have a look of being artificially aged.

 

I agree, it would be nice to see a couple of examples with normal wear to compare to.

[Jay Seay]

Just curious, could this be normal wear? And dependent on the environment that an item is stored

in or the amount of handling, or lack of handling, i.e. skin oil, cleaning that may or may not have

​occurred, residuals, pieces may present very different over time. I have pieces from my fathers Navy uniforms

that I know are real, but appear similar in wear. But, no left looking eagle. Just nut attachments with

scattered patina. Seems to be a great variation in wear, whether artificially enhanced or not. Like medicine,

​an inexact science. And then there are differences in materials and environments and handling that could

create a vast array of presentation, as well as lighting. Just for thought.

[unclegrumpy]

All good points, and none that I can disagree with. However, I don't see any signs that this hat badge has been on a hat...it looks really fresh and new to me.

 

I think the yet unsaid part of this discussion that has caused some of us to pause, is the knowledge of some of the very well executed insignia fakes that are currently on the market....some out in very limited quantities I don't know if this badge is one of them, but there are excellent KC Luke Marine Officer EGA copies that are out there. I have seen those, and they are very very good.

 

Personally, I would really like this one to be good, but agree with Dave that a little caution is still in order.

[Dave]

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/47048-kg-luke-hallmark/

 

I've posted a link in the KG Luke hallmark thread about it.

 

The more I look at the photo, I can't shake my uncomfortable feeling. I haven't yet run across any other KG Luke insignia that appears to have been sand cast or poorly cast like this one.

 

I would love to be wrong, and this would be a KILLER hat device...I can hope!

[unclegrumpy]

A key attribute the vast majority of the pieces in the thread have, is a raised hallmark. I am not saying that the lack of one is a deal breaker, but that has always been a something that can be the difference.

[Jay Seay]

I think I would have to lean towards what unclegrumpy is saying here, if it is fake it is one of the well executed ones,

All good points, and none that I can disagree with. However, I don't see any signs that this hat badge has been on a hat...it looks really fresh and new to me.

 

I think the yet unsaid part of this discussion that has caused some of us to pause, is the knowledge of some of the very well executed insignia fakes that are currently on the market....some out in very limited quantities I don't know if this badge is one of them, but there are excellent KC Luke Marine Officer EGA copies that are out there. I have seen those, and they are very very good.

 

Personally, I would really like this one to be good, but agree with Dave that a little caution is still in order.

I don't see where it's poorly cast as Dave mentioned because the detail in it, especially in the Eagle is nearing impressive.

Then the other gentleman said the hallmarks are exactly as his fathers on return from Java. Doubt that his father came home with a fake.

Had the man I bought it from not been to Australia, I doubt I would have touched it. And then anything Luke, Gaunt is not trusted

because of the fakes. But, there have to be a few real ones out there. Were they already faking these in the late sixties? It may well be a fake, it may well be a great copy of one, somewhere Luke must have made this for copies to be possible, I really doubt someone would have gone to huge effort to create this out of their head. And, I've looked a long time and haven't seen but one other out there, and that man was in Austraila and when I asked could I buy it, he told me see his widow. That was four or five years ago and he had shown it on some Aussie military sight. It may have taken a dip in jewelry cleaner. Hope a few others jump in, like to see what the folks are thinking on the Luke thread. Is that on this forum? Thanks for all comments. Hell, maybe no matter what it is I should mount it on the hood of my next new car. (Not) I think it's pretty darn handsome no matter what it is though. Thanks for all the thoughts so far. Hope some others jump in. Yes, caution is always in order. Dave, I may trade you this for your Mercedes emblem. : )

[unclegrumpy]

I think it is too soon mount this on the hood of your car.

 

Nobody has said that they know this badge is a fake. However, we don't have the benefit of knowing the validity of the story you have with it, but sadly do know that there are some excellent copies of similar things out there.

 

As far as someone going to the effort to make one of these, I think that someone absolutely would. This would be a rare and expensive badge, and worth some serious money.

 

On the positive side, if you have confidence in what you know, that can go a long way. I have items that I knew where they came from or had a story, but nobody liked them when I got them. Eventually, most proved themselves out, though a few did not.....and some I am still waiting on.

 

​I think what Dave initially said, still holds true. That is, there should be a more of these out there to compare with, but sometimes it takes time for them to surface.

[Jay Seay]

Hi Gentlemen

 

Can anyone obtain the DD214 of another person, and if so, would it show a TDY assignment? No matter if these are fake or they were real, I

really don't want to sell them. If they are fake, I got greased good that time. So greased it didn't even hurt. Unclegrumpy, if they just happened

to be real, what would you value them at? I really don't need the money even if they were worth alot. Not saying I won't one day, but not in the near

future. I photographed this in the sunlight. I know flash distorts too much. Would some better pics be in order? What would be the best light, out

in the shade on a bright day? You know, if a bunch, or even several of these showed up as shows or online, I would certainly know there was a fox

in then henhouse. But, I've looked and looked and have seen one. I understand what you are saying Unclegrumpy, someone would make one, but not from scratch would they? Hell, if they made this from scratch, they missed their calling in life because I think it's a better looking design than the two

examples the officers are wearing in the above pics. Dave, is that an Eagle in the headdress on your pic? It's pretty sharp, it may be a Luke. : ) Thanks

for your thoughts fellas.

 

J

[Dave]

Hi Gentlemen

 

Can anyone obtain the DD214 of another person, and if so, would it show a TDY assignment? No matter if these are fake or they were real, I

really don't want to sell them. If they are fake, I got greased good that time. So greased it didn't even hurt. Unclegrumpy, if they just happened

to be real, what would you value them at? I really don't need the money even if they were worth alot. Not saying I won't one day, but not in the near

future. I photographed this in the sunlight. I know flash distorts too much. Would some better pics be in order? What would be the best light, out

in the shade on a bright day? You know, if a bunch, or even several of these showed up as shows or online, I would certainly know there was a fox

in then henhouse. But, I've looked and looked and have seen one. I understand what you are saying Unclegrumpy, someone would make one, but not from scratch would they? Hell, if they made this from scratch, they missed their calling in life because I think it's a better looking design than the two

examples the officers are wearing in the above pics. Dave, is that an Eagle in the headdress on your pic? It's pretty sharp, it may be a Luke. : ) Thanks

for your thoughts fellas.

 

J

 

Unfortunately, if you're looking for the discharge papers of the guy you got the badge from, you're probably not going to get them, even with a FOIA as they're less than 62 years old. In addition, any TAD assignments are not listed on the DD-214.

 

My concerns with the badge are thus:

 

1. The anchors appear to be cast. Not just appear to be, but the more I'm looking at them (I have the image pulled up next to me as I type this) I am absolutely certain they are. And they are poorly cast too. I've seen lots and lots (and lots) of Navy officer hat badges and none of them exhibit the rough texture of these anchors. They are all smooth.

 

2. The color of the eagle is just...strange. I've never seen a grey-ish colored eagle before. And it also appears cast, as you can see the small casting "pock marks" on the second vertical line on the shield for example. And why would it not be marked "sterling"? KG Luke routinely made sterling insignia, so why wouldn't they have made this out of sterling? Even if it wasn't, the fact that it appears cast instead of struck is a bad omen for it. Looking at both the KG Luke discussion thread and the thread for the same in the Hallmark Reference section, none of the insignia is cast; it is all struck.

 

It would be well worthwhile for someone to fake these. I've offered $250 for a US-made left-facing eagle hat device before, and for a legitimate KG Luke one...I'd probably go $350 or more, depending on how much "play money" I had available at the time. With plenty of fakes out there for insignia in the sub-$100 range, making fakes of higher end insignia is well worth someone's time.

 

I would love to see some other photos under different light, if you're willing to do them.

 

Dave

[Dave]

Here's a right facing, but legit KG Luke device from the Stewart's website. Note how the eagle is sterling and how it was struck instead of cast. This is what I'd expect to see from a professional insignia maker...

[Jay Seay]

Hi Dave, not saying what you are saying is wrong here, but this right facing Eagle has a terribly shoddy looking

hallmark. Especially the raised hallmark. The letters are just non uniform and respectfully one of the worst hall

marks I've seen. The incised sterling looks better, but not great. The anchors look struck, are you sure that Eagle

is struck? Can you show us any or get the owner to photograph some vertical shear markings on the edge? Isn't

that ironic that the one (mine) that may be a counterfeit is so much nicer looking than this one, that's supposed to

be real. The back of this one has gouges and ridges, most other diestruck military insignia don't have such a rough

looking back. If I had the two of them together in a beauty contest, I'd pick mine. Now that's not being difficult, it

just is a far nicer looking piece. I suppose I may have hit the nail on the head when I said the creator of the one I have

missed his calling in life if it in fact is counterfeit, because I've had a host of people comment on how beautiful it was.

That may be an authentic Luke you posted, but I will forever think less of Luke's ability to produce a nice insignia. And

I won't even enter into discussion at length on the shield which the vertical bars are not even or uniformly spaced. And

some other this and that's. In about 2 days I can get some better pics of the one I posted. Would you see if you can do

the same of this recent post. Love to see some vertical shear marks on that Eagle. Not saying there aren't any, but that

hallmark is poor. I would never have bought the one posted, especially because of the Eagle and the hallmark.

Thanks. Anyone else?

[Jay Seay]

 

I agree the hallmarks look spot on. However, my concern is that it looks like the anchors were sand cast and the color of the eagle is just...odd. I'm not saying it's bad. At the same time, I don't know if I'd buy it if it were offer to me, but that's 100% just my opinion off of seeing a couple of photos.

 

Would love to see if someone else has something similar. I'd LOVE to have my cautions put to rest on it.

Dave, if earlier you agree as above the hallmarks look spot on, why do the one's from Stewart look so profoundly

different? Could it be that the time difference on how they were made, or, could they both be fake?

 

The hallmark you agreed on mine was spot on, is as difference as a Navy Cruiser and Noah's Ark, respectfully.

Thanks.

[Jay Seay]

Is there an edit function on these post for a spelling or grammar error? Sorry, meant to say the hallmarks are as different as a Navy Cruiser and Noah's Ark.

 

J

[unclegrumpy]

I think Dave's extensive comments in post #20 are spot on. I also think that hat badge he posted from Stewart's Military Antiques is an excellent example showing the attributes one would expect to see in an unquestionably real one. That one is a real beauty in every respect.

 

As far as the hat badge in question, I think this discussion has made me more doubtful about it, and I had strong reservations in the first place. One aspect that has not been brought up that might help expand the dragnet, is separating the hallmark from the badge itself. Meaning are there other rare makers, say Tiffany for example, that are finding their way on exactly this same badge stamping/casting?

 

I think Jay's post #22 illustrates how hard some of these things are to collect. He makes some excellent well thought out points which do a good job in substantiating his conclusion. However, I think one has to consider the good fakers can be very cunning and know this thought process too.

 

Lastly, most of us have been gourd before, and the repeated memory of that pain, has caused us to sharpen our focus to gain the knowledge and experience so it hopefully does not happen again. That is the root of the skepticism that causes many of us to ask for more studying and fact finding before a definitive conclusion can be made.