Can anybody Identify This WW I Collar Disc?

[world war I nerd]

I recently came a cross a photo of 1st Division men dated October 1917.

 

One of them is wearing a horseshoer's specialty insignia on his sleeve and looks to be wearing a collar disc bearing a leather worker's round knife. I've never seen a collar disc like this.

 

Can anybody identify this collar disc? Guesses and opinions are also welcome.

 

Thanks

 

 

[world war I nerd]

Here's the entire image.

[eaglerunner88]

Check out this link and see the second photo of the 1902 Cavalry uniform. You can see the symbol in question worn on the sleeves which identifies him as a farrier who prepares and fits the shoes onto the hooves of horses. The symbol looks very much like a driving hammer which is a tool of this trade. So the soldier must be a farrier which would make sense with his horseshoer's specialty insignia.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/26378-1902-us-army-enlisted-dress-blues/

[world war I nerd]

Hi eaglerunner,

 

Thanks for the link to the saddlers specialist insignia. I've seen that insignia before, but I've never seen a collar disc with what looks like a round leather worker's knife. I was just wondering if the disc actually depicted the knife or if it was something else that I interpreted incorrectly to be knife.

 

Any thoughts ... anybody?

[Cavdoc83]

The horse shoe on the sleeve is the symbol for the farrier (horseshoer) specialty. So, the guy in the pic is a Private First Class. The round knife is the symbol for the saddlers' specialty. He could certainly be trained in both specialties, but he would be unlikely to be both in service.

 

I don't believe that the round knife is the symbol on this collar disk. The disks were meant to designate branches, not specialties. With a little imagination, the disk in question could be Quartermaster Corps. It's possible, I suppose, that it could even be a Medical Corps disk placed upside down, if he is a Farrier in the Veterinary Service.

 

It's a great pre-war photo - rank still being worn on the left arm, and 1910 leggings.

[world war I nerd]

Cavdoc 83, I think you're right about it being an inverted medical collar disc. I can't believe that I didn't recognize that's what it was! Talk about tunnel vision, every time I looked at it all I saw was that round knife.

 

The photo is said to be of 1st Division men in the Grondecourt training area circa October 1917. The men are definitely wearing 1917 Trench Shoes which suggests that the photo was taken sometime after August 1917.

[Cavdoc83]

OK. That explains the presence of the holstered 1911 (and that sort of surprises me if these are rear echelon troops - I'd expect a revolver). (- and why is he armed at all? He's not an NCO; and if he's on Guard Duty or something, why the hell is he busy shooting dice?!)

 

Now, does the hat cord fit? I don't think that I've seen a period photo of the Medical Corps hat cord, but I might imagine that it would appear a little darker than these. I'm still open to the possibility that these are Quartermaster Corps troops.

[Cavdoc83]

Here's a couple of medics for comparison:

 

[world war I nerd]

I was under the impression that they were wearing light blue infantry hatcords, (medical hatcords were maroon & white). You can see the two colors on the hatcord worn by the soldier in the photo you posted. A Quartermaster, possibly supply train, hatcord (buff) is also a possibility. If I'm not mistaken each supply train has a farrier and saddler to look after the livestock and mend the harnesses, etc.

 

The sidearm can be explained by the fact that the men are in training, As such the soldier with the automatic could be the NCO in charge a detail that was out of the frame or returning from the pistol range or part of the guard detail, etc. Of course then we have to assume that he was passing by and only crouched down long enough to have his photo taken with the craps shooters.

 

As far as the unusual combination of infantry hatcord (if that's what it is), the medical collar disc (if that's what it is) and the horseshoers specialist insignia (which it appears to be) ... I don't have a clue. I do know that each infantry regiment had a 55 man medical detachment attached to the HQ Company. However, I don't know if they wore medical, infantry or a HQ collar disc.

[atb]

Looks more like a QMC disk to me.

[phillock]

Hi WWI

 

Could it be pre WWI Veterinary collar disk with unit no. attached?

 

Phill

[world war I nerd]

The Veterinary Disc is certainly a logical choice, especially the one with the numeral above the winged hoof. However, to me the disc still doesn't quite match what this guy's wearing.

 

So far the possibilities have been: Veterinary, Air Service, Quartermaster & Medical. Here's a side by side comparison of each disc with a poor quality enlargement of the mystery collar disc. Any thoughts?

[world war I nerd]

Another comparison

[Cavdoc83]

I hadn't thought of the numbered veterinary disk, but it still doesn't seem to quite fit - the symbol seems too high. There would be no farriers in the air service, so that's out. I'm still voting QMC. (But, I'm open to the idea of an upside down Med Corps disk.)

 

I need to rethink most of what I said about the hat cords, as I see that the guy in question doesn't have most of his cord showing. You may very well be right, wwIn, about the other three guys - could be Infantry cords. Mystery dude could still be something different.

[world war I nerd]

I agree that the numbered veterinary disc is the closest to the shadowy shape on the mystery disc, but its position on the disc isn't right.

 

I included the Air service disc because I received a PM suggesting that it could be an Air Service disc.

 

It's a weird disc!

[Jennings Lane]

I realize that this particular post is more about trying to identify something from a fuzzy image. But, it's a good opportunity to mention Emerson's insignia reference book. Most Forum members are probably aware of this book, but for those that aren't, it's worth a look.

 

William K Emerson's Encyclopedia of United States Army Insignia and Uniforms. University of Oklahoma Press.

 

I feel that it's one of the better general reference books for identifying U.S. Army insignia.

[Cavdoc83]

Emerson's book is great, but, right now, I wish that I had Scipio's book on collar disks!

[GWS]

Other than the previously mentioned Medical Corps disk, the only thing I found in Scipio's book( that even resembles it) is this Naval disk on p.171. It would also have to be upside down and it seems unlikely that a horseshoer would be in the Navy !

[GWS]

Oops, didn't mean to say upside down, but the medical caducius disk seems more likely to me.

[world war I nerd]

GWS, the naval disc is pretty cool, I've never seen one of those.

[GWS]

WW1 nerd---Nor have I, except for this pic in the book. The straight up and down anchor design roughly resembled the disk in question.......at least to me it did.