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An M4 Bayonet Gets a Work Out in Viet Nam


Charlie Flick
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Charlie Flick

The caption to this photo reads: A South Vietnamese soldier uses the end of a dagger to beat a farmer for allegedly supplying government troops with inaccurate information about the movement of VC guerillas in a village west of Saigon. Photo was taken January 9, 1964.

 

Charlie

M4 bayonet.jpg

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That is not how you get local people to give you information.

 

According to the caption, he had already given information--bad information. Who's to say that the bad information didn't cost the ARVN's a number of casualties? I know I would be P.O.'d if I lost buddies to treachery.

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The caption to this photo reads: A South Vietnamese soldier uses the end of a dagger to beat a farmer for allegedly supplying government troops with inaccurate information about the movement of VC guerillas in a village west of Saigon. Photo was taken January 9, 1964.

 

Charlie

 

Seen this picture a few times over the years.Intresting photo.

 

Thanks for posting Charlie.

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Cap Camouflage Pattern I

 

According to the caption, he had already given information--bad information. Who's to say that the bad information didn't cost the ARVN's a number of casualties? I know I would be P.O.'d if I lost buddies to treachery.

 

Yeah, but still, I wouldn't give information if this is what would happen if the enemy had a change of plans or whatever.

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In the first pic, there is an M-16 off to the right side of the pic....an early M-16. I can't see the ring on the bayonet good enough, but that may actually be an early green handled Colt M7.

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Bill- You might have nailed it as an early M7 bayonet in the first picture. I clicked the pic, which eventually enlarged. The pommel does look like an M7 pommel. My question is why does an ARVN troop have an M16 in 1964? This was about 8 months prior to the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. Our advisers were carrying US WW2 weapons. But will research it. What I could find was that M16s were being used in Vietnam in 1963. But I just don't see them being issued to ARVN troops at that time. Could be wrong. SKIP

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Skip.....I can't see a soldier armed with an M-16 carrying an M4 bayonet.....I do believe that is an early green handle Colt M7 bayonet. I do recall reading somewhere that M-16s were issued to Vietnamese troops early in our involvement over there so that data could be accumulated on it's performance in combat to try and convince all the branches of the US military to convert to the M-16. Indonesia was sold M-16s and supplied with green handle M7s before every branch of our military switched to the M-16. The US Air Force was the first military to use the M-16, and they had green furniture when they were issued along with the green handled Colt M7s.

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Charlie Flick

That may actually be an early green handled Colt M7.

 

Hi Bill:

 

I think you and Skip might be right, the first pic posted may well be an M7. I identified it mainly by what appeared to me to be the leather washer grip and the 1964 date which I (incorrectly) assumed was too early a date for use of the M16/M7 by ARVN troops. However, I failed to notice the barrel of the M16 on the right side of the photo. Therefore, I have to agree that the bayonet is most likely an early M7. Maybe you could post a pic of a green Colt example to allow us to compare the two.

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

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Charlie Flick

 

Seen this picture a few times over the years.Intresting photo.

 

Thanks for posting Charlie.

 

Hi Ron:

 

This photo was taken by an AP photographer, Horst Faas, a West German who was one of the top war photographers in the 1960s. This pic certainly captures some of the violence and brutality that is part of every war.

 

Charlie

 

 

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Hi Ron:

 

This photo was taken by an AP photographer, Horst Faas, a West German who was one of the top war photographers in the 1960s. This pic certainly captures some of the violence and brutality that is part of every war.

 

Charlie

 

 

The picture does capture an intense moment.

 

Also a lot of detail.

 

The camo trousers are early or of french design.Canteen cover appears to be used as a spare magazine carrier.The two first aid pouches are intresting.Seem to be something heavy in them.His suspenders have been modified by cutting off the short front straps.Dog tags hanging from his pocket.There is also a Huey in the back of the photo.Seeing a lot of WW2 or Korea items used or worn.Typical for the period I guess.

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A couple of things, the second photo, the ARVN has an M4 Bayonet, check the round pommel, and small barrel ring. Spoke to my neighbor, he deployed on his first tour to Vietnam in fall of 64'. Said he got to fire the M16 for familiarity prior to leaving. He also stated that he never saw any ARVN troops w/ M16s at that time. He was an SF Commo SGT at that time with 5th Group. But, who's to say an individual could have gotten a hold of one. It might be an adviser's M16 who's standing close by. All speculation. SKIP

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SKip

 

Thats what I was guessing it was possibly an Advisor holding the M16.Looks like hes holding the prisoners floppy ha as well.

 

 

To me the bayonet in the first picture seems to be the M4 carbine one.The handle being leather has a darker contrast to it than the typical geen in my thinking??I would think if it were green it would be more lighter when photographed as is the uiform and gear of the soldier holding the bayonet.

 

I have spoken to a few early SF and Other advisors and they always talk about the M2 carbines and how they were easier for the "little people" to carry and use.

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The early green handled Colts were brown molded plastic painted green that after excessive use had a tendency to wear off. Also the very first M7s were brown and not painted green. I do believe that the pommel in the pic does look more like an M7 pommel. An M4s pommel is round in shape as can be seen in the 2nd pic. I could be wrong, but I think it is an early Colt M7.

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I agree with Bill. If you compare an M4 w/ an M7, you'll note the spring loaded retainers in the pommel of an M7 protrude out ward more than an M4. SKIP

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  • 1 year later...
citizensteely

A couple of things, the second photo, the ARVN has an M4 Bayonet, check the round pommel, and small barrel ring. Spoke to my neighbor, he deployed on his first tour to Vietnam in fall of 64'... He also stated that he never saw any ARVN troops w/ M16s at that time. He was an SF Commo SGT at that time with 5th Group... It might be an adviser's M16 who's standing close by. All speculation. SKIP

 

 

SKip

 

Thats what I was guessing it was possibly an Advisor holding the M16.Looks like hes holding the prisoners floppy ha as well.

 

 

To me the bayonet in the first picture seems to be the M4 carbine one.The handle being leather has a darker contrast to it than the typical geen in my thinking??I would think if it were green it would be more lighter when photographed as is the uiform and gear of the soldier holding the bayonet.

 

I have spoken to a few early SF and Other advisors and they always talk about the M2 carbines and how they were easier for the "little people" to carry and use.

Hey guys, I hope I'm not too late to this party. I had some general questions about the use of the M4 bayonet during Vietnam. I had heard that the M1 and M2 carbines, and therefore potentially their M4s, were still in limited use by some elements of the American military during the early years of the our involvement and I was curious if anyone has anything they can share with me about this? This discussion has made clear that the ARVN were carrying them but were Americans? And if so, does anyone know if they were the rubber or leather handled versions? Thanks!

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US troops had M1, & M2 carbines early on, and I also knew guys who carried carbines later in the war as back up, or personal preference. My Special Forces unit had M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, BARs, and Riot Shotguns available into 1989, and beyond (new in the wrappers). The armorer was a buddy of mine, and called me to come up to the arms room, and help take them out of the white bags. Fun day! Ammo was still available, when requested. SKIP

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Charlie Flick

 

 

I had heard that the M1 and M2 carbines, and therefore potentially their M4s, were still in limited use by some elements of the American military during the early years of the our involvement and I was curious if anyone has anything they can share with me about this?

 

Capt. Robert Bacon, US Army, in South Viet Nam.

 

Charlie

 

Captain-Robert-Bacon-Leading-a-Patrol-During-the-Early-Years-of-the-Vietnam-War.jpg

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citizensteely

US troops had M1, & M2 carbines early on, and I also knew guys who carried carbines later in the war as back up, or personal preference. My Special Forces unit had M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, BARs, and Riot Shotguns available into 1989, and beyond (new in the wrappers). The armorer was a buddy of mine, and called me to come up to the arms room, and help take them out of the white bags. Fun day! Ammo was still available, when requested. SKIP

Thanks for the great information SKIP! Truly a treasure trove of historical options. What a fun day indeed!! If only to have one - EACH!- of those now... Do you happen to know if any of those guys carried the M4 for their carbines? Or would that have been pointless with so many newer and arguably better bayonets and knives available?

 

And thanks for the picture of Captain Bacon as well, Charlie. Do you happen to know when that photo was taken?

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Charlie Flick

Citizen:

 

You are welcome.

 

I believe this pic was one that originally appeared in LIFE magazine. I had it handy so I posted it for you but don't have a date on it. You can probably get the details on the pic by checking the LIFE online archive.

 

And here is another one for good measure. This time it is an M2 Carbine (note the selector switch).

 

M2 Carbine over SVN 1963 CH-34 Choctaw crewman.jpg

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

 

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