Wedgehead30 Posted August 30, 2014 Share #1 Posted August 30, 2014 A friend from out of state recently began collecting patches. He has all of the same questions I did when I first started. Like me he's a visual learner. So In an effort to help him better understand I sent him these pictures. They seemed to have helped illustrate a few visual clues for him. Figured I would post them here in the hopes of helping others. I'm nowhere near as experienced as most of the members of this forum. So if I've missed something or unknowingly misrepresented something please feel free to comment. You won't hurt my feelings..... On to the photos: Two seemingly identical 80th Infantry Division patches. Both are a little haggard but in fair condition. Nice and pliable, cut edges, machine embroidered, seem to past the initial exam. Let's look at the backs. The one on the left has a nice white "snowy" back. Seems it's a no brainer, WWII vintage for sure. The one on the right is pretty light on the "snow". Gives a slight pause for concern. Definitely want to look at this one closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedgehead30 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share #2 Posted August 30, 2014 So let's light them up with the UV light. Oh boy, Houston we have a problem. Seems the "no brainer" lights up like a neon sign or exhibits a Glow. The slightly suspect one exhibits no glow. The lighter colored threads actually absorb the UV light and take on a dark cast. So there you have it. Not a 100% surefire way of verifying. But one piece of the puzzle. Hope it helps. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted August 30, 2014 Share #3 Posted August 30, 2014 Yep, the glow test is flawed and is only one piece of the puzzle. Thanks for the posting! -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillock Posted August 30, 2014 Share #4 Posted August 30, 2014 Also another point to consider. If the 80th have been embroidered on a white cotton twill its post WWII-1950's. Some manufacturers changed the medium or khaki cotton twill to using the same colour as the main design ie red on red , blue on blue ,black on black etc.. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted August 31, 2014 Share #5 Posted August 31, 2014 Also another point to consider. If the 80th have been embroidered on a white cotton twill its post WWII-1950's. Some manufacturers changed the medium or khaki cotton twill to using the same colour as the main design ie red on red , blue on blue ,black on black etc.. Phill In addition, tons of 1980's Patch King repros with synthetic return threads don't glow at all! So much for the value of a black light. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ka bar Posted August 31, 2014 Share #6 Posted August 31, 2014 Now I'm gonna be really confused.... Thank goodness I've got Allan H on my side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldWarPatches Posted August 31, 2014 Share #7 Posted August 31, 2014 UV test with a good light is a GREAT TEST. 99.9% of WW 2 and before are cotton. Cotton will not glow. Again COTTON will not glow. Washing if rinsed properly will not make it glow. If not rinsed properly what ever glow from the soaps will be blotchy and not uniform. When that happens you can rinse with hot water and that WILL come out. Burn test the glowing patches and you will see they are not cotton. I have had some patches that brighten up more than others but not the same glow you see in newer made patches. Reenacters have patches made, worn then removed for the next reenactment because they will be another unit. That's why some of the low cost patches are reproduced, then there are the sucmbags that just make fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
respectingthesacrifice Posted August 31, 2014 Share #8 Posted August 31, 2014 UV test with a good light is a GREAT TEST. 99.9% of WW 2 and before are cotton. Cotton will not glow. Again COTTON will not glow. Washing if rinsed properly will not make it glow. If not rinsed properly what ever glow from the soaps will be blotchy and not uniform. When that happens you can rinse with hot water and that WILL come out. Burn test the glowing patches and you will see they are not cotton. I have had some patches that brighten up more than others but not the same glow you see in newer made patches. Reenacters have patches made, worn then removed for the next reenactment because they will be another unit. That's why some of the low cost patches are reproduced, then there are the sucmbags that just make fakes. Could you please recommend some models of good lights? As the offering is huge... And hard to know what is a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tredhed2 Posted August 31, 2014 Share #9 Posted August 31, 2014 No, "99,9% of patches made during WW II and before are cotton". Where did you come up with that figure? Many WW I patches, since they were done locally and in theater, may have used cotton, but wool and felt were also used in equal, if not larger, numbers. Rayon was the fiber of choice beginning in the late 1930s for US patch manufacturers. Rayon is considered an artificial fiber; synthetics did not really enter the insignia market until the 1950s. Cotton was used for the khaki medium to which the patch cables were embroidered; its use in clothing, equipment, etc., necessitated the change to rayon for the cables. ASMIC pubbed an article in the Apr-June 2002 issue which was about "Patch Styles and Manufacture"; another article "Synthetically Speaking, WW II Patches Won't Have Synthetic Treads" was pubbed in the Oct-Dec 2011 issue (FriscoHare here on the Forum was the author of that one). Both articles are very well researched. Better yet, you might want to familiarize yourself w/ Hans De Bree's book, WW II US Made Fully Embroidered, Cut Edge, Shoulder Sleeve Insignia. It is the standard collector's Bible for US patch collecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor996 Posted August 31, 2014 Share #10 Posted August 31, 2014 Better yet, you might want to familiarize yourself w/ Hans De Bree's book, WW II US Made Fully Embroidered, Cut Edge, Shoulder Sleeve Insignia. It is the standard collector's Bible for US patch collecting. that's awesome advice: got this book and its amazing. GREAT resource for any level patch collector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted August 31, 2014 Share #11 Posted August 31, 2014 UV test with a good light is a GREAT TEST. 99.9% of WW 2 and before are cotton. Cotton will not glow. Again COTTON will not glow. Washing if rinsed properly will not make it glow. If not rinsed properly what ever glow from the soaps will be blotchy and not uniform. When that happens you can rinse with hot water and that WILL come out. Burn test the glowing patches and you will see they are not cotton. I have had some patches that brighten up more than others but not the same glow you see in newer made patches. Reenacters have patches made, worn then removed for the next reenactment because they will be another unit. That's why some of the low cost patches are reproduced, then there are the sucmbags that just make fakes. The 6th Service Command patch I illustrated above was washed by myself as a kid over 30 years ago. It still glows like the moon. You can rinse it all you want and it will still glow. Perhaps washing it again might work, but I like to use it as an example of how a black light can give bad advice. I don't use them anymore when I found out just how inaccurate using one is. It is but one tool in a large tool box. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldWarPatches Posted August 31, 2014 Share #12 Posted August 31, 2014 Over half the patches in Hans book are from me. He has been one of my best buyer's and friend for years. Yes I left out felt and wool. Should not have picked 99%. Id like to know if a burn test was done on the glowing freak patch. A good 2' UV tube type light is about $20.00. I'm not claiming to be an expert like many of you are, I have bought and sold a few million $'s don't have problems. If it glows I toss it and so do many of my collectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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