Fake, Fantasy & Reproduction Wing Examples

[MikeK]

My first definite fake - a decent casting. Sorry the scans aren't great. A $15 eBay pick up with bad picks. Very finely and clearly stamped STERLING behind the highly concave balloon. Typical waxy look/feel with some casting seams along the top edge and some casting pockmarks on the reverse of the balloon. Weight, 17.14g (without clutches), 75.3mm long, 25.1mm tall.

 

Regards,

Mike

[MikeK]

Reverse...

[mshaw]

This J.R. Gaunt TO wing was just listed on Ebay. The TO wing is fraught with fakes. What does everyone think? :thumbdown: :thumbsup:

 

 

 

 

It went for a little over $200. Someone either got a good buy or flushed $200.

[mshaw]

And another...

 

I have one of these Flight Engineer wings that I picked up several years ago. The patina is looks really good and that points out the dangers of relying on patina. Some of these restrikes have been around so long that they have that "old" look.

[pfrost]

Here is a wing on ebay right now that I think is not so good :thumbdown:

 

I had heard that this 6 pointed star was a fantasy hallmark.

 

The detail seems to be excellent, but I have my doubts.

 

Any other ideas?

[pfrost]

The back. I think a fake hallmark and fake patina.

[CliffP]

Here is a wing on ebay right now that I think is not so good :thumbdown:

 

I had heard that this 6 pointed star was a fantasy hallmark.

 

The detail seems to be excellent, but I have my doubts.

 

Any other ideas?

:bye1:

 

Hi Patrick,

 

A thread about one of those badges was posted by John Cooper back in November 2009. Pull it up here:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=58802

 

:wink2:

[CliffP]

 

Patrick,

 

Speaking of hallmarks, what is your opinion on this bad boy??

 

:think:

[pfrost]

 

Patrick,

 

Speaking of hallmarks, what is your opinion on this bad boy??

 

:think:

 

 

Hey Cliff,

 

Forgot about that other thread.

 

Honestly, it seems kind of questionable to me--looks like a double strike and the fonts seem off to me. However, I have to be clear and say I have almost no experience with these wings. I know a couple of nice Josten balloon pilot and senior pilot wings are/were recently on ebay and went for big money. Myself, I would want to study these carefully.

 

Patrick

[pfrost]

So, Cliff and a discussion I had with Russ made me wonder about these wings.

 

From a previous thread, Cliff asserts that at least 8 makers of sterling airship wings: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...=35949&st=0

 

Josten is not one of them.

 

1. AECo

2. BB&B

3. From Official Die

4. Kinney

5. NS Meyer NYC

6. V.H. Blackinton

7. Wm. Link.

8. Also, the unknown wing badge manufacturer who made the die. It was found among several military dies at a company called Karat Gold in New York, NY.

 

From another previous thread, an airship wing hallmarked Pasquali that seemed to be agreed was a reproduction. NOTE: I don't want to point the finger at another person's badge and exclaim it is a fake. Lets just assume for the sake of argument that it is not a vintage wing.

 

And the comparison of the Josten wing. Things to note, the Pasquali (reproduction?) and the Josten wing are the same pattern. The two differences are in the hallmark and in the catch and hinge are a bit different.

 

According to Cliff, neither company made airship wings. In fact, Pasquali likely never made any wings themselves, but rather got their stock from Blackinton. This seems to be an accepted truth.

 

So, I guess the question is, if the Pasquali hallmark has been added to a reproduction wing (or maybe a Blackinton-made wing sold by Pasquali), are the Josten hallmarked wings (on a very similar wing) also reproductions or Blackinton-made wings?

 

I have never heard of Josten making airship wings, the hallmark doesn't look as well made as other Josten hallmarks of wings I have seen, and I have never heard that Josten got its wings from another company. Of course, my ignorance is not proof of anything other than I am stupid, but still..... considering the likelyhood that this will be a very expensive auction, one does wonder???

 

Also, is it me, but does it seem that the most recent Pink and Green book went from being a well researched and critical examination of USAAF wings, to a catalog of someone's very expensive (and currently being auctioned off) collection? :think:

[pfrost]

Here is another airship wing be auctioned off with a near identical wing, but this one is marked with the NS Meyer hallmark.

 

Again, it is hard to know what to think, but 3 wings with incised hallmarks. All the same pattern wing.

[John Cooper]

Patrick - great comparison and observation! So same die different names... :think:

 

While we are on the topic I wanted to add this to the mix... I thought about this when looking at the photos Cliff posted in post #141\2 plus in post #51. Not an exact match but thought I would add it in for discussion.

 

[CliffP]

 

Hi Patrick,

 

Did you ever study forensic science? I ask that because the questions you raised about those Airship pilot badges accompanied with the pictures that were posted should have raised more than an eyebrow or two. Wow!

 

Maybe to stir the pot a little bit more, I've added pictures of two balloon pilot badges below. Won't say anything about number 1 except that it caused me to raise both eyebrows while looking at it.

 

Now badge number 2 was/is a Balfour *re-strike that was sent to me on approval by a well known dealer back in 1990. Unfortunately, it would not lay flat on the Xerox machine while trying to make the picture thus the top of the badge was at an elevated angle which makes the front appear more compressed than badge number 1.

 

*Yes, in the late 1980s Balfour actually made several re-strikes of balloon pilot badges using their original die...and they might do it again if ever asked. So did they also make any senior airship pilot re-strikes in the 1980s? Who can say except that these days we all need to keep our guard up.

 

cp

 

:think:

[CliffP]

:think:

 

Does any one have a logical explanation why this or any other maker during World War II would placed the number '9' below their hallmark?

 

:crying:

[John Cooper]

:think:

 

Does any one have a logical explanation why this or any other maker during World War II would placed the number '9' below their hallmark?

 

:crying:

 

 

Cliff I think that is an "S". IIRC I have heard two stories on this S = sample or this is a restrike as mentioned above and someone marked it... I am watching this just to see how high it goes.

 

John

[CliffP]

Cliff I think that is an "S". IIRC I have heard two stories on this S = sample or this is a restrike as mentioned above and someone marked it... I am watching this just to see how high it goes.

 

John

 

Hi John,

 

After looking at the backmarks closer I think you may be right about that being an 'S' rather than the number 9. It also would appear that the backmarks are somewhat distorted. So was the badge struck with the hallmarks/backmarks twice? If that was the case it would be just one more RED FLAG WAVING .

 

:crying:

[John Cooper]

Hi John,

 

After looking at the backmarks closer I think you may be right about that being an 'S' rather than the number 9. It also would appear that the backmarks are somewhat distorted. So was the badge struck with the hallmarks/backmarks twice? If that was the case it would be just one more RED FLAG WAVING .

 

:crying:

 

Cliff to me this is a restrike made by Balfour until I have more information. Additionally this wing has been found with the LGB STER mark which is not to be confused with the legit LGB STER back mark on the two in wings.

 

Cheers

John

[rustywings]

I believe you are all wise men to be leary of this Balfour "S" marked Senior Balloon pilot wing. It is my opinion, the Balfour Company used the "S" stamp as an abbreviation for the word "STERLING". However, they did not begin using this abbreviation until after WWII. I have seen a number of L. G. Balfour produced commercial airlines pilot wings made in the late 1940's through the 1950's with the "S" stamp. Here's a couple of legitimate examples of 1947-1950 era Flying Tiger Lines with the "S" mark. Note how clean struck the mark is compared to the Senior Balloon Pilot example.

[rustywings]

L. G. Balfour "S" marked Flying Tiger Lines Captain wings and cap piece.

[rustywings]

Close up of the "S" (STERLING) mark.

[rustywings]

Here's a couple examples of the L.G. Balfour "SAMPLE" stamps found on late 1940's American Airlines prototype pilot wings. I've never seen a WWII wing with a "SAMPLE" mark. Do they exist? If you have one, please share it with us. Russ

[rustywings]

Another post WWII era L.G. Balfour "SAMPLE" stamp.

[John Cooper]

Ahhhhh the plot thickens!

 

The wings you posted Russ are very cool and have a recognized LGB font at least to my eyes. My knee jerk reaction to this new information makes me think that someone was altering the restrikes with a poor quality balfour + s stamp... maybe they even planted the information that the S was for sample vs. yours that are clearly marked sample. Who knows!? :think:

 

If only I could recall whom told me this... it may even be the same person we spoke about when we meet at Bonham's...

 

Great stuff thanks for posting!!!

 

John

[John Cooper]

Well the senior balloon wing ended up going for $697.00... it would be an interesting topic if the buyer posted it here... There is always a chance he knows something most other do not...

 

John

[pconrad02]

OK Here's some more fuel for the fire, before I comment what does everyone think of MY LGB Senior balloon wing

 

The hallmark is LGB STER

 

Below ( sorry my camera is dieing)