FAKE!, Fantasy & Reproduction Wing Examples

[268th C.A.]

True...but for $25. probably not much more than silver scrap. Just know what your getting. reenactor or a hole filler. 

[Pryo]

The user I am posting about is in Arizona, and not a single one is good. 25+ bad wings

[cwnorma]

40 minutes ago, 5thwingmarty said:

I find it incredibly hard to believe a "collector" could unintentionally gather so many obviously bad wings. 

Marty,  

 

Hence the "quotes."

 

I have had similar "collections" (conglomerations of crap? gatherings of gewgaws? heaps of chazzerai?) offered to me at shows, and been (honestly) flabbergasted to learn the owner actually and earnestly thought they had "something special."  When it falls to me to break the news their labor of love (and sometimes not insubstantial investment) is practically worthless, the initial stages of loss set in: denial, and more often than not, anger--usually directed in spittle-flecked, Militaria-show table-distance from my face shouts, "BUT I BOUGHT THIS FROM SO AND SO, AND HE IS TRUSTWORTHY!!!"

 

Well, then call So and So and tell him you want your money back.  Give him my name.  If his reputation is so stellar, he won't complain.

 

Not all collectors approach the hobby with scholarly method and intent.  Some "collectors" just want to believe.

 

What leads me to speculate this was a "collection" (there go those quotes again) being broken up (versus some sort of dealer inventory) is that there is not much in the way of repeats.  Its all just a guess though.  What I think we can all agree upon though; it's all junk.

 

Chris

[cwnorma]

Moreover, just because this particular seller isn't selling any good material, does not necessarily indicate that there was no good material in the overall collection.

 

Dealers that have good reputations to protect don't want to carry junk in inventory.  A sullied reputation is not good for business.  But, when purchasing a collection, they may have to buy some junk in order to get at the good material.  When saddled with junk, rather than take a total loss they will often quietly pass the bad material on to less reputable (or knowledgable) sellers.  Sometimes at a loss, but normally they have paid an amount for the entire collection that will still allow them to make a profit.  Some dealers I know will even swallow a small loss in order to get their hands on certain "prestige" material to feed their best customers.

 

Like a lot of you I suspect, I monitor eBay and other internet auctions pretty closely and am also in regular contact with many of the most active dealers.  There is a always certain "background level" of early aviation material present on the market.  So whenever I see a sudden anomalous up-swing or blip in the data, it leads me to believe that some collection, somewhere has been broken up.  Even if the blip I see first is bad material (as in this case), it frequently means that some dealer somewhere has gotten something good into inventory.

 

Happy hunting!

 

Chris

 

 

[pfrost]

This kind of reminds me of some of the discussions we had about other big collections that came to market. About 10-12 years ago or so (IIRC), there was a MILLION DOLLAR COLLECTION (I always hear it in my mind as being all caps!).

 

The story behind that collection was, as best I was able to work out, a wealthy individual from New York or New Jersey had been collecting military patches and insignia for many years. This guy's family was big into art collecting, and for what ever reason, he decided to collect rare patches, wings and other insignia.  When he decided to sell the collection, it was split into 3 large lots, some sold by Mannions and some sold by a guy on eBay (I have long ago forgot who he was). 

 

This forum (as many of the other militaria forums) were lit up for about a year as some super rare and desirable patches and items came up for sale. There were lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth about fakes and frauds and other things.  It was a lot of fun to be a fly on the wall and if you search the archives of this forum you should find many of the old threads.

 

Apparently this guy (I was able to figure out his name at the time --although I have long since forgotten it) was buying "rare" items from all sorts of dealers.  I suspect that a lot of well known dealers were selling him high end stuff for top notch prices, and I also suspect that a lot of other dealers where selling him fakes and other crap.  But like the old REO Speedwagon song says "talk is cheap when the story is good", I have nothing concrete to go by.

 

In the case of wings, A TON of wings were pulled for being fakes (you can see many of those types of wings in the pinned thread of fakes). This guy was buying ALL SORTS of crap, and I was told by someone who was involved in setting up the auctions that a large number of fakes were actually pulled from sale.  It was also rumored that some well known wing dealers were implicated and that the owner of the collection was considering filing law suites against these people. Again, just rumors I heard, but I have to believe that certain dealers were finding sleep hard to achieve....

 

Sadly, some other dealers who have always had excellent reputations were somewhat caught up in the hoopla.  During the heyday of these items being sold, it wasn't uncommon to log onto the internet and militaria chat forums and get a dose of rather nasty accusations  and counter accusations.

 

But out of this incredible collection came some really fantastic items.  Once in a life time collection in many ways. I used to love watching the auctions back the day.

 

Some other big collections that have come to market since I started collecting were the Norm Flayderman Collection, Duncan Campbell Collection, Peter Malone Collection and Terry Morris Collection. I am sure I missed many others, but I personally knew Duncan (talked to him a few times, but I did know him), and Pete Malone who was a collector of groupings in So Cal.  Of course we just recently lost Terry Morris.

 

The Million dollar collection really highlights what Chris was saying above.  That collection came out with a metric sh*t ton of fantastic wings mixed up with a metric sh*t ton of crapolla. 

 

My sense is that this clown on eBay is not selling an old collection.  I suspect that there are more mundane reasons for all the fakes.

 

Just my 2 cents.

P

[cwnorma]

Patrick,

 

Your post reminding us all about the "Millionaire Collection" actually made me chuckle!  I remember all of that. That was also around the same time that some other guy was hawking, "HYPER-RARE!!!" items on eBay. He used descriptions that would practically berate potential buyers for not realizing what a favor he was doing the world by listing them. Good times!

 

Ebay can be an interesting exercise in human behavioral observation!

 

Chris

[Tesla]

Well my friends I just bought a collection from ebay that at first glance I dismissed as a bunch of post war and outright fakes listed as a WWII collection....BUT......look at the gem Beverlycraft bombardier wing that I noticed in the group with a few other wartime wings.  Chris is absolutely right about sometimes buying some junk to get the good stuff and the whole lot was less than I have paid for one Beverlycraft wing in the past.  

    Oh...and that glider wing is absolutely horrid...glad I can get it out of circulation 

[Tolzer]

French LeBreve .925 Pilot Wings

 

I've noticed the WWI LeBreve, Paris 925 Pilot Wings all over the internet. The Lebreve wings are fantasy, and are based on a WWI wing that was made by Humrichous in Memphis Tennessee. I am not even sure if Lebreve ever existed as a company.

 

This is from a well known auction site.

 

Description:

AMERICAN PILOT'S TUNIC, WINGS, BREECHES, BEDROLL, AND MORE 
Very rare American military pilot's tunic. An M1912 summer field blouse, of cotton drilling material also known as khaki, the tunic has five brown Bakelite eagle buttons at front, as well as at the four patch pockets and on the shoulder straps. All buttons are affixed with button springs. Neck closure is two steel hooks and eyes, the collar fitted with two sets of brass 'U.S.' emblems painted black, and formerly silver-washed winged props devices affixed with pin backs. The sleeve cuffs are adorned with officer's tresses. A very rare French-made three-piece construction sterling set of pilot wings is affixed to the left breast, marked on the reverse: 'LEBREVE PARIS 925'. Also included is the pilot's matching pair of breeches, button fly, with laces at cuffs all intact. Also included: a similar pair of military-issue breeches in heavy green cotton, laces intact; a pair of brown breeches, lacking laces; another pair of breeches matching the tunic, with all laces; a lighter beige pair of breeches, Philadelphia Depot marked, with laces, stained; two web belts; field issue knife, fork, and spoon; an officer's canvas bedroll (which doubled as a suitcase), with leather padded handle, stenciled with the name 'LT. HAUGAN'; a large, white mosquito net, and a ca. 1927 Johnson & Johnson 'Aerokit', a first aid kit designed for aviators, in the very rare printed brown canvas pouch. A fine assemblage.

[cwnorma]

 

1 hour ago, Tolzer said:

...The Lebreve wings are fantasy, and are based on a WWI wing that was made by Humrichous in Memphis Tennessee. I am not even sure if Lebreve ever existed as a company.

 

@Tolzer, recent research has uncovered the correct spelling of the Tennessee maker is "Homrighous" named for Henry Clay Homrighous: 

Your assessment of Lebreve is spot on.

 

Believe it or not (I checked) there were three WW1 Aviators with the last name Haugan.  Even if a collector were to assume the coat actually belonged to an Aviator and pursue it for that sake, unless there is some more identifying information not in the listing it is unlikely to nail down the specific Haugan.

 

Chris

[Sequatchiee]

Can we see a front and reverse photo of the wings ?

 

[Tolzer]

We do not own this uniform. It was posted on a Auction Site.

[Bull Moose]

New variant of the LaBreve Balloon Wing on eBay.
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234858871105?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=WJXm3RFcR16&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=-y5jSSKmRs6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[Tolzer]

Current Bid: $420.00

https://www.alexautographs.com/auction-lot/american-pilots-tunic-wings-breeches-bedroll-and-_2BB46DDB54

[Tolzer]

Hammer Price: $850.00

[cwnorma]

12 hours ago, Tolzer said:

Hammer Price: $850.00

SMH

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Still plenty of people who bid first and post later...to sad news.

 

[jeff41st]

Couple of cast flight nurse wing listings to be aware of on eBay. The Blackinton is very poor quality. These wouldn't fool most of us, but might be helpful to newer collectors to see obvious fakes.

 

 

[BUFF Rider]

I disagree with pfrost. These wings are listed in "The Insignia, Uniforms & Equipment of the U.S. Army Balloon Corps: 1917 - 1922" by Richard E. Des Chenes who was a life long US Army balloon expert, as WB-37 on page 46. Des Chenes says that these wings were often reproduced, but as single piece  castings, as was shown by truckbob. pfrost implies that soldering together multiple pieces of jewelry is easy, and something that a forger would do. I sometimes make silver jewelry and the soldering is very labor intensive. You have to look at the quality of the work, and these wings are very well made. Tom

[BHillen]

Um, sorry, I am confused. BUFF Rider, are you saying the wings pictured in post numbed one are legitimate USAAC wings? 
And you think they are very well made?

[pfrost]

I never said it was easy, just that the detail and quality of workmanship is poor.  That, perhaps, is up to the beholder as to what constitutes "quality" but this wing and its many permutations remains one that I will studiously avoid adding to my collection.

But to quote from back in 2008 or so... I would still urge that collectors "avoid anything that looks like it could have been made with a hack saw, a couple of files and chisels, and some electrical solder" in someone's garage, as that is where it was probably made.

 

But I am not the wing police, just someone with an opinion.  That and a few bucks will get you some coffee.

 

 

 

 

[BUFF Rider]

The quality is in the soldering, not in the dies. It was not electrical soldering, it was silver soldering. There were several dies for the wings pieces, and to put all of them together in one piece was very labor intensive. I assume nether responders has seen Des Chenes book since he went into much detail on these wings and their reproductions (I have not copied it here due to copywrites). Also I have seen some very poor detailed authentic aviation wings, and some excellent modern wings (better than vintage), so quality is not a measure for WW1 wings. Tom

[pfrost]

You would be incorrect to assume that I am unaware of Mr. Des Chenes' book.

[BHillen]

I am also aware of the book authored by Des Chenes.

 

[5thwingmarty]

I checked online about the book, and it appears all of the available copies are soft cover second editions, and either new or used would cost around $112.  Although an interesting topic, that is pretty pricy for a book on such a limited scope.  Wing reference books can be helpful and informative, or interesting but misleading, and I have no knowledge of the value or veracity of this particular book or its author.

[pfrost]

There is a reason why many collectors do not refer to this book (or Charles Fitzimmons book for that matter) when talking about WWI wings.