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Opinions for ARVN Uniform ?


A82nd507th
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Hi guys,

 

I recently picked this set of camouflaged jacket and pants.

 

The camouflage and the shap reminded me some ARVN uniforms, but I am no expert. The sleeves of the shirt are shorts. There are stamps in both the shirt and the pants.

 

What do you think this is ?

Is it VN war era ?

 

Thanks!

 

- Aury

 

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Thanks for posting aips!

So this was worn by the South Vietnamiese Police ?

Do you know if the US Green Berets wore those ?

 

- Aury

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yes npff south vietnamse nantional police field force

ive never heard of green berets wearing it ..not officially anyway

an american advisor to the national field police would of done though.

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Alright, thanks a lot for your help!

 

I think I am going to keep it for the moment, but I will gladly contact you if I change my mind.

 

- Aury

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vintageproductions

Commonly worn by numerous different US advisors and soldiers.

I have had them named to SEAL's, I have seen a photo of a Special Forces member wearing some NPFF camo, plus I had a set years ago named to a 173rd soldier.

A nice matched set like this is tough to come by and can by pricey.

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Thanks for your help gentlemen!

 

I collect SF stuff as well so this uniform will be deplaid on a next mannequin.

 

- Aury

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thefallenbuddha

That is a really nice set!

 

And, great photo, aips!

 

Also, not only the National Police Field Force, but all branches of the police wore this camouflage (when they did wear camo). It was the de facto camo for police.

Actually, many of the period photos online showing police in this camouflage are regular police, not NPFF.

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Gil,

There are several different prints of this pattern.

There is even a larger scale print that I discovered after owning many pieces for several years.

The quality of the printing on the cloth varies with some fading drastically after only a few washes.

Other prints hold the dye well just like tigers!

 

a great print.

 

owen

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  • 3 weeks later...
hochiminhtrail

it s a nice set, if you look closly this shirt this is a localy made shirt, with the size numbers printed in the neck, and 2 pockets on the chest, then it has been tailored by adding the two lower hip pockets.

 

There exist a another set of uniform, which looks just like the one posted here, it s a 4 pocket shirt with a waist starps, which is offshore made, mostly they have a withe tag in the back of the neck.

 

you see mostly NPFF/CSDC members wearing this kind of uniform on field operation, other Police units working with the CSDC like Police Special Branch, and Resource control units, mostly do wear olive green uniforms.

 

cheers

 

HCMT

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thefallenbuddha

And, period photos can also be found of NPFF/CSDC in green fatigues at times.

I've just viewed this camouflage as "police" pattern rather than NPFF/CSDC exclusively, as (although examples of other patterns in use invariably appear) it was the de facto camouflage for the police forces as a whole when they did wear camo (for whatever reason), not just the NPFF/CSDC.

Also, for what it's worth, among the veterans (non-NPFF/CSDC) I've spoken with, they have always referred to it as "police camo."

 

policecamo.jpg

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hochiminhtrail

The major problem for some CSDC units was the procurement, some provinces didn't even have the 3 allocated set of uniforms for each policemen, they had to differ to ARVN uniforms, and this in the 70s so im not talking about 1965 at the start of the CSDC program, the same problem occurred at the CSDC training center in Dalat.

You might see here and there some regular policeman wearing a CSDC item, maybe a full camo set, acquired on a personal basis, maybe at the tailor shop, or in a trade with CSDC policemen, but i have not see pictures of a whole police unit during deployment wearing CSDC camouflage other then the CSDC themselves. As this would have been a no go, i can tell you that the USAID MACCORDS advisors would have come down on the VNese police unit, as regulation on uniforms were strict. Everything was reported to higher up, from every district, on a weekly and monthly basis, and from what i know from the records, higher ups were not to kind on experiments, even or especially with uniform regulations, my informations goes until end of 1972, i cant say what happen the last 3 years of the war, if changes occured.

 

One has not to forget that CSDC policemen were also transfered out of the CSDC back to the regular police units, they might also have taken some items with them.

 

HCMT

 

 

 

 

And, period photos can also be found of NPFF/CSDC in green fatigues at times.

I've just viewed this camouflage as "police" pattern rather than NPFF/CSDC exclusively, as (although examples of other patterns in use invariably appear) it was the de facto camouflage for the police forces as a whole when they did wear camo (for whatever reason), not just the NPFF/CSDC.

Also, for what it's worth, among the veterans (non-NPFF/CSDC) I've spoken with, they have always referred to it as "police camo."

 

policecamo.jpg

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thefallenbuddha

Thank you for the reply!

 

As you mentioned, the issue is in part two-fold. On the one hand, procurement problems dictated that different patterns or green fatigues were in use at times (as was the case for all services of the RVN). And, the full history of the service does run through 1975.

 

The question I am getting at is a matter of semantics on what to call the pattern.

Yes, the CSDC was more likely to wear camouflage all the time (and have whole units kitted out this way), but it was not the only uniform they employed.

When the police forces wore camouflage (whether they were regular police, CSDC, affiliated with one or the other, or transferring back-and-forth), this was the pattern they typically wore.

I can point to particular examples I know of where individual regular police can be seen in this camouflage, but the best examples of images of groups of regular police in this camouflage would be during civil disturbances, particularly in the later years. (The photo I posted earlier is from April 1975 in Saigon).

 

From my perspective, I view this pattern as "police" rather than CSDC/NPFF exclusively.

In short, my reasoning is from the following:

- This pattern, although by far the most common, was not the only one worn by the CSDC

- This pattern was usually the de facto pattern for any branch of the police forces when they did wear camouflage

- This pattern, with some notable exceptions, was almost uniquely in use by members of the police forces only (i.e. regular army, rangers, airborne, marines, etc, did not wear this pattern en masse, although examples can be seen of them wearing most other major patterns of RVN camouflage at one time or another)

- Among Vietnamese veterans I've spoken with, this pattern is referred to as "police," not just CSDC

 

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hochiminhtrail

I agree that it was a police pattern camouflage, as the police were not issued officially any other type of camouflage, and so veterans will always recall it as a police camouflage, if they had to wear it or not.

In one MACCORDS report there were problems with this camo issued uniform only to the CSDC, and no to other police units, i can't disclose more as this stage.

 

USAID MACCORDS took a great care at how the police looked, as they were the representatives of the goverment with the population, recommendation in changes of uniforms came past their desks, before being approved or not.

 

For exmaple discussions on how the grey pants of the regular police were fading fast in the sun, and needed better textiles for the coming orders, were not unseen on MACCORDS desks.

For me there is no proof that a whole police department like the Police Special Branch or Resource Control, at province or at a district level were issued as a whole unit the CSDC camouflage, im not talking about private purchase items. Both were on duty operation with the CSDC, in screening villages and hamlets of the VCI.

 

Even tho that the Police Special Branch was CIA (sponsored) and not USAID.

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thefallenbuddha

So, to be clear, you are saying any member of the police force from any branch other than (or directly involved with) the CSDC who wore this camouflage at any time or place did so only as "private purchase?"

 

Also, a note I would make on US reports by advisors or other entities involved with the police / CSDC (as with any part of the RVN) is that these invariably only pertain to the specific time, place, and experience of the author(s). There is no detailed general history of the uniform practices of the South Vietnamese police forces through 1975 prepared by any agency of the U.S. that I am aware of.

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hochiminhtrail

I have been trough over 12000 pages of official document from USOM to USAID and MACCORDS, from the begining of the 1960s to 1972, and the uniform question came up a few times, how the police looked like and what had to be changed, these memos were intern US Agency and were probably handed down to the Vietnamese as recommendation. These recommendation also had to be followed up by the US advisors attached to the police, they were not allowed to wear what they wanted, in practice it might have been different. As we know Saigon is far from the provinces.

 

As for now, knowing the police supply system I don't think that other units were issued this type of camo other then the CSDC, maybe I m wrong and I willing to change my mind if a photo is showing a group of non CSDC policemen wearing this camo with their respective police patch on it.

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hochiminhtrail

the best proof would be a written order, that shows that the CSDC camo was to be distributed to units other then the CSDC.

We have to find out if regular policemen were issued camouflage uniforms to them, i doubt that traffic police or any criminal, judicial police unit needed a camo.

 

There are not many police units working as a paramilitary force in the field, capable of going after the VCI, so i dont realy see the need for other police units wearing camo on a large scale.

 

HCMT

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thefallenbuddha

Well, how many official Republic of Vietnam written decrees for the wear of a specific camouflage pattern by a single formation exclusively (by no other units) have you seen?

 

And, most photos that show this camouflage in use, unfortunately, do not give clear shots of what unit affiliated insignia (if any) was worn.

 

At the end of the day, I think the best anyone can do is interpret what evidence they have and draw a conclusion based on that. But, it should be stated as an opinion based on that, and not a fact full stop.

 

I think to state that anyone at anytime in anyplace who wore this camouflage and was not affiliated with the CSDC did so only as a matter of private purchase is a misnomer.

 

Examples can be found of most any camouflage pattern in use by soldiers of any branch. To chalk up all of these exceptions to private purchase only is a rough guess at best.

 

On the topic of regular police in camouflage, I believe various scenarios for this can easily be imagined. Two of these being, as you mentioned, in the countryside, and, as the earlier photo I posted referenced, during civil disturbances in the cities.

 

Either way, I think it comes down to a matter of interpretation at this stage. You have drawn yours at this point, and I have drawn mine, and that is what a good discussion is all about.

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hochiminhtrail

you are right, it s a matter of interpretation, and of course what i say is not written in stone, and i might be wrong at some point.

 

another thing that i wanted to add, knowing the cost in $ for each set of CSDC camoufalge, and that procurment was overseen by USAID MACCORDS, i can tell you they were aware of the cost for the US tax payer, and from what i understood from the documents, spending was well thought over, they were not so willing to spend extra funds allocating uniforms to police units not realy needing camouflage. Even if we think VN war was an open checkbook.

Of course how the VNese handeld the situation, between themselves behind the back of USAID is another matter, maybe they shifted clothing and material outside the CSDC to the normal police, but USAID advisors, were at the CSDC warehouse, checking very precisely the incoming and outgoing.

 

cheers

 

HCMT

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thefallenbuddha

Yes, it is trying to formulate these interpretations that makes the uniforms and insignia of the Republic of Vietnam armed forces and government agencies interesting.

 

We, unfortunately, do not have a massive archive from the inner workings of the RVN to consult the way we do for US forces in Vietnam.

 

What we do have is different sources of information, which offer pieces of the picture, inter-mixed with some things we will never know. The interpretation lies in how we bring these pieces together to form a mosaic of how things can be argued to have been.

 

Contemporary reports by US personnel on activities in Vietnam are just that.

Veterans recollections are veterans recollections. And, photographs are photographs.

It is up to us to interpret how these correlate to each other, and what that tells us about practices during the period.

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