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5'x10' WWII US Naval Flag


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Hey guys,

 

I got this flag from a buddy over in the UK a couple years ago. There just isn't anything I can find on it. It's a 48 star, US Navy flag. It measures approximately 5'x10' and is marked "Boatswain 8". I assume this is WWII USN. What size ship would it go on, Destroyer? Here on the East coast, I ran into a larger one (!) hanging on the wall at an antique store. And I thought this one was huge. I take it the larger one would go on a Battleship? Any information greatly appreciated. Nonetheless, interesting if not displayable, hehehehe... Thanks!! ;)

 

-Ski

post-3043-1213875425.jpg

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Does it have stamps on the flag anywhere, like by the boarder?

 

Usually the ones I've seen have heavy grommets on the side for the ropes through which to lower and raise the flag on the pole.

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Does it have stamps on the flag anywhere, like by the boarder?

 

Usually the ones I've seen have heavy grommets on the side for the ropes through which to lower and raise the flag on the pole.

Navy flags do not have the grommets. Navy flags have a line running through the tabling (canvas border). There is a brass ring on top , several feet of line and then a brass snap hook. For a WW 2 ensign, the line will be either a tan braided cotton or Manila. Ensigns genneraly had the braided cotton. The tan color comes from a preservitive it was treated with.

 

On British made flags, there is no snap and ring. They used double brass hooks. Basicaly a brass oval with a gap in it that was used to hool two rings together.

 

48 star flags were used until 1959. A flag of that size would be a holiday ensign for vessels over 550 to 800 feet in length, or a daily for a larger vessel. The larger vessel would have an ensign 7x14 feet for a holiday.

 

Looking forward to hearing any other identifing features.

 

Steve Hesson

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Navy flags do not have the grommets. Navy flags have a line running through the tabling (canvas border). There is a brass ring on top , several feet of line and then a brass snap hook. For a WW 2 ensign, the line will be either a tan braided cotton or Manila. Ensigns genneraly had the braided cotton. The tan color comes from a preservitive it was treated with.

 

On British made flags, there is no snap and ring. They used double brass hooks. Basicaly a brass oval with a gap in it that was used to hool two rings together.

 

48 star flags were used until 1959. A flag of that size would be a holiday ensign for vessels over 550 to 800 feet in length, or a daily for a larger vessel. The larger vessel would have an ensign 7x14 feet for a holiday.

 

Looking forward to hearing any other identifing features.

 

Steve Hesson

 

Great bit of info, Steve! Hopefully others can add to it and perhaps even post some examples! :)

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Thanks for the information. The only marks on the flag are the printed "Boatswain 8". It is printed near the top of the flag where a 12" wood stick reenforcement is located under the base of the flag. You can see it in the pictures. The wood feels like it was broken at some point. On the bottom, the rope is still evident and looks to be manila. The flag has seen a lot of use with holes and tears in it. I sure wish I could go back in time to find out when and where it flew. I don't see it being a 1950's flag.

 

 

-Ski

post-3043-1214110954.jpg

post-3043-1214110963.jpg

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Thanks for the information. The only marks on the flag are the printed "Boatswain 8". It is printed near the top of the flag where a 12" wood stick reenforcement is located under the base of the flag. You can see it in the pictures. The wood feels like it was broken at some point. On the bottom, the rope is still evident and looks to be manila. The flag has seen a lot of use with holes and tears in it. I sure wish I could go back in time to find out when and where it flew. I don't see it being a 1950's flag.

-Ski

Ski, are there any brass fittings on it? How about at the end of the tail line? I have seen British made flags with the wood rod in the tabling. This alows the flag to extend above any staff or out past the gaff. The wooden rod is refered to as a "Pig Stick". This may possibily be a Brit made, for Brit use. We also normally carried sets of forgin ensigns aboard US Navy ships so it would be very normal for them to also have ours. The other thing is the lack of any markings. US made flags (made for the Navy any way) have a whole series of markings stamped on the tabling such as manufacturer, size of flag and stock number.

 

Most ship board flags take a beating. While it is not in regs, most US Navy ships use what are called "Steamers" under way. Each ship is assigned sizes of flags based on the length of the hull. You have the "Daily" size ensign and the "Holiday" (which is bigger and only used on Sundays and Holidays in port). Theoritacilly, the Daily ensign is what you would fly underway. But, they are expensive and do not last much more than a month or two before they are simply trashed. So, we use smaller and cheaper ensigns underway to save on the big expensive ones. Today, it also makes it easier on the electronics. I have had ensigns foul on anteneas and get caught in radar anteneas. Interestingly, while the flag gets beat up, usually, the electronics gets the worst of it.

 

From looking at the photos, the ensign appears to be made of the old wool cotton blend (it was refered to as "Indian Head"). Being a 48 star flag, at best it has been stuffed away somewhere for fifty years, so a bit of moth damage and what not is to be expected.

 

Nice flag.

Steve Hesson

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Interesting. No, there aren't any brass fittings. The upper end has the rope cut off at the Pig's Stick and the lower rope (about 18" showing) terminates in a knot.

 

The larger flag I saw here in the states (mentioned above) also had the same "boatswain" marking on it, so unless that one was British made as well, I dunno.

 

-Ski

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Interesting. No, there aren't any brass fittings. The upper end has the rope cut off at the Pig's Stick and the lower rope (about 18" showing) terminates in a knot.

 

The larger flag I saw here in the states (mentioned above) also had the same "boatswain" marking on it, so unless that one was British made as well, I dunno.

 

-Ski

Ski, You're right, interesting. Your flag isn't nessecarily Brit, I just have only seen flags with the stiffener that were Brit made. It would be interesting to track down that "Boatswain" marking.

 

Thanks again for the nice flag.

 

Steve Hesson

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Navy flags do not have the grommets. Navy flags have a line running through the tabling (canvas border). There is a brass ring on top , several feet of line and then a brass snap hook. For a WW 2 ensign, the line will be either a tan braided cotton or Manila. Ensigns genneraly had the braided cotton. The tan color comes from a preservitive it was treated with.

 

On British made flags, there is no snap and ring. They used double brass hooks. Basicaly a brass oval with a gap in it that was used to hool two rings together.

 

48 star flags were used until 1959. A flag of that size would be a holiday ensign for vessels over 550 to 800 feet in length, or a daily for a larger vessel. The larger vessel would have an ensign 7x14 feet for a holiday.

 

Looking forward to hearing any other identifing features.

 

Steve Hesson

 

Not trying to create controversy as I have no personal experience along this line, but years ago I bought a Navy Destroyer Escort sailor's seabag that he had brought back from WW2. In it was a flag in "well used" condition which was flying at the time the DE (USS Atherton) sunk a German sub. I later passed the flag along to a vet of that ship who had it framed. The comment that Navy flags did not have grommets bothered me because this flag has 4 grommets. I passed this information on to the vet, who contacted another vet of the ship who was a signalman and raised and lowered the flag. Here is his comment on the Navy enisgn:

 

I am not going to say that this Guy doesn’t know what he is talking about. However, unless he was aboard a ship with unusual rigging he is confused between the rigging of Signal Flags and the Ensign Flag. I have attached a picture of the Flag Bag so you can see the type of ring – snap rigging he was talking about. This was done so we could snap the signal flags together fast. Note the large loop in my left hand and snap in my right hand. The American flags (Ensign) we all flew at the mast head (at sea) and stern staff (in port) had grommets just as the flag you and I and all the rest have. Halyards on flag mast and poles have a snap on both ends (for top and bottom grommets of the flag).

 

He included a photo of himself at the signal flag locker:

 

Sig20Flags1.jpg

 

This is the flag in question. The vet I got it from stated that he was at the helm at the end of the action, and when the flag was being replaced due to its condition, he kept it as a souvenir. I have absolutely no reason to doubt him as we had completed the deal and he was going through the seabag to see if there was any personal items he might want to keep. He saw the flag and passed on the story without elaboration, so it was not used as a selling point.

 

ATHERTONFLAG1.jpg

 

As stated, I know nothing personally, and it is quite possible that the larger ships used a different ensign arrangement, this flag is quite small about 4x6 or less when complete.

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Not trying to create controversy as I have no personal experience along this line, but years ago I bought a Navy Destroyer Escort sailor's seabag that he had brought back from WW2. In it was a flag in "well used" condition which was flying at the time the DE (USS Atherton) sunk a German sub. I later passed the flag along to a vet of that ship who had it framed. The comment that Navy flags did not have grommets bothered me because this flag has 4 grommets. I passed this information on to the vet, who contacted another vet of the ship who was a signalman and raised and lowered the flag. Here is his comment on the Navy enisgn:

 

I am not going to say that this Guy doesn’t know what he is talking about. However, unless he was aboard a ship with unusual rigging he is confused between the rigging of Signal Flags and the Ensign Flag. I have attached a picture of the Flag Bag so you can see the type of ring – snap rigging he was talking about. This was done so we could snap the signal flags together fast. Note the large loop in my left hand and snap in my right hand. The American flags (Ensign) we all flew at the mast head (at sea) and stern staff (in port) had grommets just as the flag you and I and all the rest have. Halyards on flag mast and poles have a snap on both ends (for top and bottom grommets of the flag).

 

He included a photo of himself at the signal flag locker:

 

Sig20Flags1.jpg

 

This is the flag in question. The vet I got it from stated that he was at the helm at the end of the action, and when the flag was being replaced due to its condition, he kept it as a souvenir. I have absolutely no reason to doubt him as we had completed the deal and he was going through the seabag to see if there was any personal items he might want to keep. He saw the flag and passed on the story without elaboration, so it was not used as a selling point.

 

ATHERTONFLAG1.jpg

 

As stated, I know nothing personally, and it is quite possible that the larger ships used a different ensign arrangement, this flag is quite small about 4x6 or less when complete.

I will conceade that the use of gromets on ensigns during WW2 was done. I was a Signalman also for 26 years (served on Destroyer

Escorts to Air Craft Carriers), we had the same flag bag arrangement, and our ensigns and jacks also had the ring at the top, tail line and snap hook at the bottom. I have ensigns and jacks that are documented to WW2 (also vet bring backs) that are riged as I have described. It is obvious that your vet was on a ship that riggrd things differently than I am familure with.

 

Learn something new every day, thank you.

 

Steve Hesson

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Hi,

Will show a example of my ensign flag. This one is well marked. On the snap hook there is a anchor, but you can not see it in the picture.

Jason

 

post-2501-1214576493.jpg post-2501-1214576505.jpg post-2501-1214576520.jpg

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Hi,

Will show a example of my ensign flag. This one is well marked. On the snap hook there is a anchor, but you can not see it in the picture.

Jason

 

post-2501-1214576493.jpg post-2501-1214576505.jpg post-2501-1214576520.jpg

This is what all the other Navy ensigns I have ever seen have looked like. Some had treated cotton braid instead of the manila line, but they all had the snap and ring. I had never encountered a Naval flag with gromets before. Pretty neat.

 

Steve Hesson

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  • 7 months later...

I have never heard this referred to as an "ensign flag". We always called it the Ensign, or the national ensign. By definition, an ensign is a flag, of nationality, so any country that has a national flag has an ensign. When I retired from the Navy, they presented me with a flag, it wasn't even a GI navy flag, they went and bought it open purchase at walmart or something, BUT, it was US made. It is flying as I write this

 

Mike 46

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  • 8 months later...
I have never heard this referred to as an "ensign flag". We always called it the Ensign, or the national ensign. By definition, an ensign is a flag, of nationality, so any country that has a national flag has an ensign. When I retired from the Navy, they presented me with a flag, it wasn't even a GI navy flag, they went and bought it open purchase at walmart or something, BUT, it was US made. It is flying as I write this

 

Mike 46

I will have to agree with Bayonetman. I have my father-n-law's Submarine ensign flag. It is a 48 star 4x6 and is just like the one you are talking about. It was used and replaced due to condition. He had given it to me just this year. Take a look. Bill

post-8222-1258505802.jpg

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I will have to agree with Bayonetman. I have my father-n-law's Submarine ensign flag. It is a 48 star 4x6 and is just like the one you are talking about. It was used and replaced due to condition. He had given it to me just this year. Take a look. Bill

They did have grommets.

post-8222-1258505890.jpg

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3
Well, I think it is pretty obvious that both types were used. We have photos of documented WW2 ensigns that used both grommets and tail lines.

 

Steve Hesson

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I think you could be correct Steve. I just stumbled onto this thread and had to add the flag I have as a documented WW2 submarine flag. My flag was used in the South Pacific and then back to Pearl Harbor on the USS Razorback

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