36-tex Posted July 21, 2014 Share #51 Posted July 21, 2014 Did anyone who thinks the original patch is a fake say why? Is it labelled "fake" because some vets say they never saw it or wore it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niner Alpha Posted July 21, 2014 Share #52 Posted July 21, 2014 Did anyone who thinks the original patch is a fake say why? Is it labelled "fake" because some vets say they never saw it or wore it? The octofoil is upside down by the way it is colored. Light color over dark is right. Dark over light is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36-tex Posted July 21, 2014 Share #53 Posted July 21, 2014 The octofoil is upside down by the way it is colored. Light color over dark is right. Dark over light is wrong. So that is the reason some think it is a "fake"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted July 21, 2014 Share #54 Posted July 21, 2014 They're faking Third Reich and US Airborne stuff, when did that happen. How long have I been asleep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted July 21, 2014 Share #55 Posted July 21, 2014 No, that is the reason Niner Alpha says its fake. None of the patch / insignia collectors say it's fake because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share #56 Posted July 21, 2014 Just got back online and saw all the new posts..Seeing the one with the "Bravo Bears" jarred my memory. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/181864-631st-of-the-9th-infantry-division-hawks/page-2?hl=+bravo%20+bears What is occurring here is a virtual "retread" of a prior subject.No wonder I had this eerie feeling of "deja vu" as this thread progressed! I will now attempt to answer a few of the comments that "jumped out" at me. "Also as a footnote in James McDuff book "Selected US Army insignia in the Vietnam war" there is one with Raider tab above the psychedelic cookie , subdued, with the the top in black , Mcduff's ones pictured in Black and White are very crude. Phil" Interesting.So we have yet another example of a "reversed" color 9th patch.Thanks Phil! "How did you get Merritt Murray's purple heart, Scottplen? I'd really like to know. He wasn't killed by friendly fire as your site says. He was killed by an explosive shell set as a booby trap." Off topic and makes it seem as if you want to attack anyone who disagrees with you. "Ok...so why are the merchant moderators more "expert" and "true" than the source I got by asking a related veterans group associated with the patch in the original post? A source who's only interest is in his published experience and with no stake in the selling for profit. Why are "moderators" who have a stake in the patch sales game unbiased in supporting some other fellow seller moderator's statement of provenance in a board that brings them customers?" So now we have a conspiracy? "Why is it that the source of the particular patch offering as his proof of provenance only the claim that he has been in business a long time and is known to be "honest"?" Integrity is one of the key foundations in establishing trust between people.His word is backed up by the goods he sells.I invite you to feast your eyes on some of Scottys' offerings and you will begin to understand why people in the know believe what he says is true.This is just one weeks auctions.He has been selling rare authentic insignia for years now. http://www.ebay.com/sch/rarepatchman/m.html?item=141325554705&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 "My basic question, forgetting all the who is an expert stuff, is where is the proof?" I've stated this before and I'll state it again.There are only about a half dozen patches in my collection,out of thousands,that I can say with 100% confidence are authentic,and those are the ones that I was personally issued when I was in the military.Since I was not issued any of the others in my collection,there is no way I can state truthfully that I am absolutely certain that they are authentic.For those I must rely on the guidance and opinions of my peers in the hobby,and Bill Scott is one of the most knowledgeable of them. "Where is even a photo from the time showing somebody wearing the patch?" There are many instances of patches being authentic with no photos surfacing(as of yet)of them being worn.Yes,it's nice to have a photo of a piece being worn but unfortunately,it is not always the case. " Where is someone who was there who recognizes it and has one to compare it to?" These points have been addressed earlier,but here goes:Many times a unit will change a design and with troops rotating in and out at different times they may not have seen the patch being discussed.There have been a few other patches posted here that match mine in age and place of manufacture.If you want to discount them too it is your choice. " If there is no proof, my reason for thinking it is bogus is at least as good as your opinion derived from whatever you want to call it. " See my comment above regarding "proof".Everyone is entitled to their opinion.It is obvious that you feel that the patch I posted is fake.I have no problem with that.Me and others here that are offering their reasons why it is authentic are entitled to their opinions too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted July 21, 2014 Share #57 Posted July 21, 2014 Vintageproductions, I didn't answer your Cheap Charlie story because I find fault with it and it was not germane to the main argument defining the difference between real and fake. I don't give a darn about your Cheap Charlie one way or the other other than I am not buying more than a marginal bit of your story.. The patch on the left that I posted as an example was made in 1970 for Bravo Company 6th of the 31st. I know this because a member of that company posted it on my site. That other patch was just taken off of ebay, picked at random by myself as an example, back a year or so ago to show guys at my other site from Bravo that if they wanted a royal non such that was kinda sorta right they could get it off of ebay for a few dollars. If Cheap Charlie was making them back in 69...from before the original design... or shortly after...why didn't he make the ones for the company and short change the retail market that didn't exist then, or more truely do so to represent what he was selling as being "authentic"? I think your Cheap Charlie story covers a multitude of sins in place of some objective research. As to my expertise... I don't have any patch knowledge except in a very narrow way related to my own experience. One thing I do know by looking at your retail site... and I sent you a pm saying this hours ago... was that of the few patches in the multitude you offer that I know something about I take issue with a couple of them as you advertise them. One you have listed...or had before I told you in the pm... as a MAC V Recondo patch. I strongly believe , if it is real, it is a Recondo Brigade patch. The Recondo Brigade was the first Brigade of the 9th Division. My battalion was in the Recondo brigade until mid 69 when it went to the only remaining Third brigade when the rest of the 9th pulled out of Vietnam. A friend still has his recondo patch attached to his jungle hat. If you were to offer it for what it is anybody who is a fan of that reprobate David Hackworth and his Steel My Soldiers Hearts would probably pay more for it than a MAC V patch. I'll attach the same photo I sent you in the PM The reason I didn't answer the pm is that it is wrong. You are looking at things from just your prospective not from the real world historical view. The MACV Recondo school was started in 1968 and was run as a "finishing" school for LRRPS and Rangers (originally). Maybe it was called whatever you are calling in your unit only, but it is world known as MACV Recondo and the patch is the pocket patch for any of the men who went through and qualified by completing the course. If you want to believe only the 9th division did this, you can leave your rose tinted glasses on. Just do a simple search via Google, yahoo, whatever you want to use and type in MACV Recondo. I think you might be surprised to find out a lot more men went through this school then just 9th division men. I don't know how you have decided to turn this thread against David Hackworth, as this patch discussion has absolutely nothing to do with him. Again you are speaking out of your rear end on there being no patch retail market in the world during Vietnam, when you are talking about Cecil & Cheap Charlie. There was a large group of collectors who were buying these patches during Vietnam, and Cecil made a fairly good side living doing it. So instead of you deeming that this didn't happen or that it is " all a cover story of multitudes of sins being committed" , do a little research of your own. Before you start slagging off collectors or the "merchant moderators" do some more research and stop being so narrow minded to think that only what you have or seen are the only original items out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrenchfootJoe66 Posted July 21, 2014 Share #58 Posted July 21, 2014 Ive got some killer Iron Crosses and Tank Destruction badges for sale. you in ? LOL They're faking Third Reich and US Airborne stuff, when did that happen. How long have I been asleep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niner Alpha Posted July 21, 2014 Share #59 Posted July 21, 2014 I only used the Bravo patch because it was easy to pull up from my photos with the side by side to make the argument that the experts on the apparent construction and material details should be able to hold forth on observation of the differences. I could see that the one that was not actual was a bad copy at best considering the design details. Instead I got the Cheap Charlie story without explanation why it was recognized as made by Cheap Charlie. Nether of us are going to change our point of view. As I said a few posts back,. you spent your money and you are happy with your purchase. You believe you made a good purchase. I'm happy for you. You are the only one who has to be satisfied. I was just pushing back against the easy certainty many express on seeing images of patches. I also question the motives of those who are in the retail trade in quickly jumping to defend their fellow dealers...and in this site as fellow moderators. At my milsurp site I wouldn't have a milsurp dealer as a moderator in the same way I wouldn't have a moderator that would promote one dealer against another. But that's not here. And that's ok by me... it's not my site in the same way your patch is not my patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted July 21, 2014 Share #60 Posted July 21, 2014 All I know about VN made patches is what I learned form a veteran. "If you can't read the letters, its probably real." However, as an innocent bystander I do this it might be wise to step back and actually look at the evidence, or lack thereof, presented by both sides. It would be interesting to know WHY the radio vet deemed it fake. If he specializes in this field, perhaps he based that upon having seen a lot of variations over the years, then suddenly a bunch that look just like this appear from no where. Or maybe he just used the smell and taste test, and decided since he didn't have one it was fake. We don't know. Of course I have to wonder about anyone having patches of a unit like this made up at all. But then, not my area. HOWEVER- When you ask people these questions, PLEASE- ask them WHY? Don't just ask "real or not." get a reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share #61 Posted July 21, 2014 Regarding differences in comparing one patch with another.During the war,theatre made patches were made by hand,either with sewing machines or hand embroidered,and if you put two of the same design side by side,it quickly becomes apparent that no two are exactly alike.Sometimes new batches were made based on a patch that someone brought in,and that patch may have had errors in it's design,colors used,or it's lettering,or a combination of any of these.I will post an authentic Seawolves piece that has errors in all regards;lettering and design,and color. Consider the factory made patches that were churned out by the multitudes in WW2.These were made to more stringent specs and still there are a great many variations found among them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Patrol Posted July 22, 2014 Share #62 Posted July 22, 2014 Radio research guys were not organic to the unit.....they were assigned. If they had a patch made, you bet they would take the chance to make it humorous to just themselves. Flipping the colors would be just their kind of schtick......they put a VN one hole latrine on their beercan DI, for goodness sake - everyone thinks its a radio - go figure - they found it funny.......but again, I don't think the patch was ever worn......but that doesn't necessarily make it a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearmon Posted July 22, 2014 Share #63 Posted July 22, 2014 I had a feeling the SED WOLF patch would rear it's ugly head again! And I mean U-G-L-Y there ain't no alibi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share #64 Posted July 22, 2014 I had a feeling the SED WOLF patch would rear it's ugly head again! And I mean U-G-L-Y there ain't no alibi! It may be ugly but it's,to quote Neil Young"As real as the day is long" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36-tex Posted July 22, 2014 Share #65 Posted July 22, 2014 O.K., so the argument is that if the colors are reversed the patch is a "fake"? Soooo is this a "fake" then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearmon Posted July 22, 2014 Share #66 Posted July 22, 2014 It may be ugly but it's,to quote Neil Young"As real as the day is long" [/quote I actually don't agree. But it ain't mine so it don't matter. I argued the point before I am not going to argue it again. But that has nothing to do with the patch in question. ( the one that started the post ) apples and oranges to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share #67 Posted July 22, 2014 But that has nothing to do with the patch in question. ( the one that started the post ) apples and oranges to me The reason I posted the Seawolves piece was to show that an authentic patch can have the wrong colors,spelling and design,so yes,I do think it has something to do with the subject we are discussing in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted July 22, 2014 Share #68 Posted July 22, 2014 Let's keep it focused on the Radio Research patch. There has been more then enough discussion on the Seawolves patch in its own thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share #69 Posted July 22, 2014 I agree.I was'nt trying to start a discussion on the Seawolves patch.I posted it as an example to make a point.Something that is done in many threads on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niner Alpha Posted July 22, 2014 Share #70 Posted July 22, 2014 I heard back from Mark...the contact through the Radio Research veterans site. The one that produced the book...etc. He also sent the photos he had mentioned in the first email. And from his examples the dark coloration is at the top and not the bottom making the design correct for what it is supposed to be. The only confusing part is the last line saying "you have identified correctly on your site". The site http://oldspooksandspies.org/patches/patches.html shows a different patch for the 335th with an entirely different design. Whatever... He said this: now that I am at home... the patch is identified (as it says on the site) as the 9th Inf Div Radio Research Unit. The patch has been remade numerous times...attached are variations of the patch that I have seen. I do not have an original, but would wager the one you sent me is not either. So many of these have been made for reunions and for collectors that it would be difficult to know for sure, however remember, when you were there most were not machine made with nice edges...more usually hand done on a machine or by hand completely... different stitching... if you look at the third one on the sheet it looks more like what I suspect an authentic one would look like, and I know it is a remake.... the person sending you the question asked about the 335th. you have that identified correctly on your site. sorry for any confusion my earlier email may have caused. I don't know when the units switched out or what caused the name change.... mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niner Alpha Posted July 22, 2014 Share #71 Posted July 22, 2014 The file didn't attach looks like. I'll try it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
63 RECON Posted July 22, 2014 Share #72 Posted July 22, 2014 Hi All, Interesting thread, I'm also not a patch guy but the second one down in the pic you posted Niner Alpha looks "similar" to the one that has sparked the discussion posted by Patchcollector. It also says "made for collectors" next to it now i might be speaking out of school but doesn't that allude to a "cheap charlie" made patch? so a wartime made patch? Be interesting to see the back on that patch if your friend can tee that up. I also found another style of the 9th ID RRT patch just to throw a spanner in the works. I do not own this patch but its from LJ militaria website so thanks to him. And ill echo what Bob has said that Recondo School was not just for the 9th Inf Div, over 3400 guys went through Recondo school from a multitude of units, even Marines. http://www.specialforcesbooks.com/HalliwlBk.htm cheers Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niner Alpha Posted July 22, 2014 Share #73 Posted July 22, 2014 63 Recon, how many guys do you think were in the 1st Brigade of the 9th Division? The Recondo Brigade. And they didn't go to any MAV V school. That doesn't mean there wasn't a school and the other divisions didn't have Recondo schools or units that used the patch in one form or the other. The thing is....If I know someone who I served with in the 9th Division in Vietnam who was in the same battalion as me before me, when it was 1st Brigade...and he has such an exact patch as is being offered for $80 by a dealer that is calling it MAV recondo, but the one I actually know about is real, why isn't my guess as to where the dealer's patch is coming from not valid? He could be right. I could be right. Is the patch worth $80 to you with the dealers word? Seems like there was a Recondo School somewhere in South America back in the 60's and 70's, wasn't there? If so... maybe the Recondo patch never was even in Vietnam. Any chance of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted July 22, 2014 Share #74 Posted July 22, 2014 Here is a novel idea. Maybe, perhaps if you can be open minded enough, that in 1968 someone from the 9th went through the MACV RECONDO school and then later in 1968 set up their own recondo element for the unit? The real RECONDO school was ran by 5th group members and was to train other servicemen about the art of ambush and patrolling in the jungle. The "final exam" was they would go out and hopefully get in hot contact with the NVA. They were then graded on how they handled it and upon graduation from the course they were presented the Vietnamese made MACV Recondo pocket patch. Just to add fuel to the fire there is a 9th Division recondo pocket patch that is shaped the same way but instead of the V there is a mini 9th patch with RECONDO across the top, just like the MACV Recondo patch. Now, lets take this back to the original posting about the RR patch and focus on that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capa Posted July 22, 2014 Share #75 Posted July 22, 2014 My uncle was in the 175th Radio Research unit. Just to reiterate one aspect of the discussion (granted for a different RRU) there was one for sale on Ebay recently and he said that he knew about them being made in Vietnam at the time, but they were not usually worn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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