A Vietnam war era incountry made 9th ID Radio Research Team patch

[Niner Alpha]

How did you get Merritt Murray's purple heart, Scottplen? I'd really like to know. He wasn't killed by friendly fire as your site says. He was killed by an explosive shell set as a booby trap.

[phillock]

Gidday all

I'm intrigued about the unit and the patch in question. I had to Google the unit and below is a history of the 335th Radio Research for those of us who don't know. There is a picture of an original 335th patch in Mike Tuckers excellent book "History on their Shoulders" I do not have permission to scan and show-its full colour same as the one in facebook etc..I am wondering if the one in question is a generic one for the 9th ID RR worn on the shoulder/ pocket patch and the company one for the individuals as a pocket patch???

 

Question to River patrol and VP is this typical of Vietnam/ SEA era construction and if so where?? Could this also be a cheap charlie???

 

Also as a footnote in James McDuff book "Selected US Army insignia in the Vietnam war" there is one with Raider tab above the psychedelic cookie , subdued, with the the top in black , Mcduff's ones pictured in Black and White are very crude.

 

http://rinaldol.tripod.com/335rrc/history.html

 

Phill

 

[Niner Alpha]

My inquiry says this patch is not genuine.

This is from an inquiry of the veterans that produce this site. http://oldspooksandspies.org/patches/patches.html

 

 

Don, I forwarded your email to the true expert. Mark supplied the patches for Jim Gilbert's book, The Most Secret War. He has a basement with thousands of patches and crest.

As he says, YES the patch was made in Vietnam 'within the past year.' It is a fake. Lonnie

Subject: Re: [ASA-talk] FW: Mail List Question
To: Lonnie Long . ( email removed from this copy and paste of the message)

Lonnie,

the patch is exactly what it says it is....335th made in Vietnam....probably within the last year. these things are all over ebay and other locations. i will attempt to remember to send a scan of a theater made (origninal) as well as some of the various reproductions...

 

mark.

 

 

[vintageproductions]

That patch was not made within the last year there is no doubt this patch shown in the start of this thread is vintage and at least forty years old.

 

Before it is added, I am very familiar with the person quoted and have read his great book.

[vintageproductions]

Just thought I would add photos from the only Ebay listing I could find of this patch.

This patch, listed on Ebay is no doubt made today in Vietnam, and soiled up to sell to the tourists market in Saigon / Ho Chi Minh City. It is computer embroidered, on a synthetic background, and then aged in coffee or motor oil blend darkener. Even the untrained eye can see this is not even close to being the same patch that is shown in the beginning of this thread.

 

 

[Survival]

I am sure glad I don't collect these patches. I have no idea if its real or not. When you have the same people, with the same equipment, using similar or same materials, in the same country, currently manufacturing these patches I can't see how anyone no matter what their expertise can say with certainty they are authentic. Talking to Vets is not a 100 percent solution either. Memories fade, they may have not been there when that patch was made, the version they brought back with them was an earlier or later variant. I recall some time back a Forum member discovered possible evidence that at least in one instance the local manufacturers were in contact with dealers in the USA manufacturing these patches to order. Just because a patch is shown in a reference book or sold by an honest dealer is not a 100 per cent guarantee either. They do the same thing over there with GI dogtags also. No matter what you collect when you find a desirable item for you collection you want it so bad to be authentic you turn a blind eye to evidence its not. I hope that patch is found to be authentic at some point.

[vintageproductions]

One of the biggest myth's in Vietnam patch collecting is the myth that "It's the same people, with the same machines, and the same materials that are making them today that made them during the conflict". This is 1000% false. Most of people who were making patches for the Americans and other Allies, got out of Vietnam in 1975 or have since passed away. It's like the stories of the uniform shops burying everything they had when the Communists rolled in and are just now un burying the items. This is another false story.

To some, Vietnam is a poor backwards third world country, but the Vietnamese aren't stupid. They know what to make and sell things, and how to make money. The machines they are now using are state of the art embroidery machines. They are not sitting there using hand guided sewing machines anymore, they are computer ran. Same thing with the same materials, these materials are no longer available. They used up whatever was left trying to survive after the Communists took over. The Vietnamese started remaking patches in the late 80's, when the Japanese started going over there to shop, and then just kicked it up when the US opened up relations. In fact I have customers in Vietnam today who buy off of my website and then resell in the stalls at the "War mart".

Lastly, I believe all the dog tags, Zippos, and patches, that are sold in Vietnam today are 99% bogus. Every hotel lobby has small stores that will engrave Zippos for you, using the old patterns. The dog tags are all newly made and aged to sell to the tourists. Remember the Vietnamese makers have the same access to websites and memorials that we have, and its very easy to just copy a name and give it a sad story to fleece the tourists.

[Niner Alpha]

One of the biggest myth's in Vietnam patch collecting is the myth that "It's the same people, with the same machines, and the same materials that are making them today that made them during the conflict". This is 1000% false. Most of people who were making patches for the Americans and other Allies, got out of Vietnam in 1975 or have since passed away. It's like the stories of the uniform shops burying everything they had when the Communists rolled in and are just now un burying the items. This is another false story.

To some, Vietnam is a poor backwards third world country, but the Vietnamese aren't stupid. They know what to make and sell things, and how to make money. The machines they are now using are state of the art embroidery machines. They are not sitting there using hand guided sewing machines anymore, they are computer ran. Same thing with the same materials, these materials are no longer available. They used up whatever was left trying to survive after the Communists took over. The Vietnamese started remaking patches in the late 80's, when the Japanese started going over there to shop, and then just kicked it up when the US opened up relations. In fact I have customers in Vietnam today who buy off of my website and then resell in the stalls at the "War mart".

Lastly, I believe all the dog tags, Zippos, and patches, that are sold in Vietnam today are 99% bogus. Every hotel lobby has small stores that will engrave Zippos for you, using the old patterns. The dog tags are all newly made and aged to sell to the tourists. Remember the Vietnamese makers have the same access to websites and memorials that we have, and its very easy to just copy a name and give it a sad story to fleece the tourists.

 

 

Well..." but the Vietnamese aren't stupid. They know what to make and sell things, and how to make money." So what keeps them from using hand guided machines if the hand guided machines make better bogus patches?

 

Here are two patches. Looks like both of them are pretty crudely made. But...the one on the left is real and the one on the right....of which ebay is always full of fromj one source or the other... is bogus. Can you tell me why you know the one on the right is bogus and the one on the left is not? Just from the construction standpoint.

 

[Bugme]

I have no dog in this fight, I do not collect patches but, I deal with many of the exact same issues in the helmet section. So, I'd like to address three points which were made here which can be applied across the board. (Note: The numbers in the quote were added by me)

1) I forwarded your email to the true expert...

2) He has a basement with thousands of patches and crest...

3) As he says, YES the patch was made in Vietnam 'within the past year.' It is a fake...

 

 

1) I have said this a great many times before but, it bears repeating: "There is no such thing as an expert, only students at different levels of education." I get concerned when the word: expert , is used to make an argument. I get more concerned when the word: true, is added to the front of that title. This is meant by the poster to mean: "Now shut up". This phraseology add's nothing to the discussion and is meant to demean others so as to regain control of the discussion by discrediting everyone else.

2) A couple years ago I bought out the estate of a patch & crest collector. At one point my garage had nearly 10,000 patches and crests. My education on patches can be summed up with: Those things that soldiers wore on their sleeves. So, I contacted those with more education than I had concerning patches and they helped me to ID them and move them. At no time did my garage full of patches ever make me an expert... only a spurt.

3) The expert says: it is a fake... OK, the expert says that it is a fake and that it was made in the last year. I say: It's real and made at least 45 years ago. Why can I say that? Because I don't have to offer proof, only my opinion. Just like the expert.

[vintageproductions]

 

 

Well..." but the Vietnamese aren't stupid. They know what to make and sell things, and how to make money." So what keeps them from using hand guided machines if the hand guided machines make better bogus patches?

 

Here are two patches. Looks like both of them are pretty crudely made. But...the one on the left is real and the one on the right....of which ebay is always full of fromj one source or the other... is bogus. Can you tell me why you know the one on the right is bogus and the one on the left is not? Just from the construction standpoint.

 

example.jpg

 

This actually a very simple answer as I have seen you posts this exact same argument in the past. The one on the left is the one you wore or was given to you while you were in Vietnam.

The one on the right was made by Cecil Smyth to be sold to collectors. He had these made from about 1969 until the fall. You will see these in patch collector catalogs from that time period and were being sold for $.75 to $1.00 each. If you do a search on "Cheap Charlie " patches you might understand better. But if you won't, let me give you the "Reader's Digest" version. Cecil lived in Saigon and had a great side business with a few of the embroidery shops in town. When a GI brought a patch design in and let's just say they ordered 20, they would make an extra 50 for Cecil. Some of these would have mistakes, not good renditions of designs, etc. Didn't matter. He bought them at wholesale then sent out photos of the patches on boards to his group of subscribers in the US. The subscribers would then circle what they wanted and send the photos back. Cecil would then send the subscribers the patches they ordered. Pretty simple. This accounts for all the variations, the misspellings, etc. These patches were made in the same shops the ones that were made for the soldiers and usually the same day they were made for the soldiers. So they are vintage / original Vietnamese made patches.

[vintageproductions]

 

 

Well..." but the Vietnamese aren't stupid. They know what to make and sell things, and how to make money." So what keeps them from using hand guided machines if the hand guided machines make better bogus patches?

 

 

That's another easy answer. Why should they waste the time to do them exact when they are going to sell them for the same price they sell the computer generated ones for? They're lazy. It's easier to mass produce them then to do them right. That's not to say there are some being done the "old school" way, but the price is what sets those apart. There is a seller who has them made the old style and charges original prices for them. He is also paying $25.00 to $30.00 each to have them made that way. The average seller in the "war mart" is charging around $5.00 or less for the mass produced styles.

 

Lets add to this:

 

Lastly using Ebay as you source of original material really leaves a lot to be desired. For every one real vintage Vietnamese made piece, it is very easily possible that you will see 20-30 fakes of that same design listed on Ebay. Where do you think the fakers on Ebay get their designs? They troll forums like this, veteran websites, military dealer websites, and Ebay itself. They then crank them out as quick as possible in Vietnam today and get them listed on Ebay as fast as possible. Usually within the first week they are then copied by the rest of the fakers, that are doing the same thing.

 

Did you read this part of the post? That is how they get these designs and remake them. I have seen numerous one of kind pieces that were shown here on USMF, but within a couple of weeks they are available on Ebay from the fakers in Vietnam or Australia. That's why the sizes are wrong, the construction is wrong, etc. All the fakers can look at is a flat image so they can't get it right.

[TrenchfootJoe66]

Popcorn anyone ?

[Niner Alpha]

I have no dog in this fight, I do not collect patches but, I deal with many of the exact same issues in the helmet section. So, I'd like to address three points which were made here which can be applied across the board. (Note: The numbers in the quote were added by me)

 

1) I have said this a great many times before but, it bears repeating: "There is no such thing as an expert, only students at different levels of education." I get concerned when the word: expert , is used to make an argument. I get more concerned when the word: true, is added to the front of that title. This is meant by the poster to mean: "Now shut up". This phraseology add's nothing to the discussion and is meant to demean others so as to regain control of the discussion by discrediting everyone else.

 

2) A couple years ago I bought out the estate of a patch & crest collector. At one point my garage had nearly 10,000 patches and crests. My education on patches can be summed up with: Those things that soldiers wore on their sleeves. So, I contacted those with more education than I had concerning patches and they helped me to ID them and move them. At no time did my garage full of patches ever make me an expert... only a spurt.

 

3) The expert says: it is a fake... OK, the expert says that it is a fake and that it was made in the last year. I say: It's real and made at least 45 years ago. Why can I say that? Because I don't have to offer proof, only my opinion. Just like the expert.

 

 

Ok...so why are the merchant moderators more "expert" and "true" than the source I got by asking a related veterans group associated with the patch in the original post? A source who's only interest is in his published experience and with no stake in the selling for profit. Why are "moderators" who have a stake in the patch sales game unbiased in supporting some other fellow seller moderator's statement of provenance in a board that brings them customers? Why is it that the source of the particular patch offering as his proof of provenance only the claim that he has been in business a long time and is known to be "honest"?

 

My basic question, forgetting all the who is an expert stuff, is where is the proof? Where is even a photo from the time showing somebody wearing the patch? Where is someone who was there who recognizes it and has one to compare it to? If there is no proof, my reason for thinking it is bogus is at least as good as your opinion derived from whatever you want to call it.

[468abnarm]

This tread has reminded me why unless I find a "RVN theater/era made" patch at a garage sale for 50 cents I don't mess with them.

[vintageproductions]

Okay, since you don't want to listen to facts, why are you even commenting?

 

I have typed it out in plain and easy to understand English. Read the part about the Cheap Charlie patches. It's about as simple as you can probably get. This also explains the variations in borders, designs and construction.

 

I will also type, again, what I said in my first posting. Did you collect or pay attention to all the local made insignia, while you were in Vietnam. I doubt it as there was much more important things you were worried about. Same thing with most other veterans who served in Vietnam. Very few focused on collecting patches, but there were some. Yet, because you were in the unit for , lets just say for the sake of arguing, one tour ( if you did more then one tour just fill in the blanks). So because you were with the unit for the one tour, you automatically know more then the guys who have collected and studied Vietnamese made insignia, since the end of the conflict ( lets say 40 years to play it safe in comparison to your one or two years)? If that is the case, please forgive me for trying to explain a simple matter. You obviously know more then all the collectors and are set in your ways, so why should we waste our time trying to explain anything to you.

[Ronny67]

This is interesting. Cool patch regardless.

[Survival]

I hope the Moderators don't lock this out because its refreshing to see the spirited exchange of ideas and opinions for a change. Most people don't like discord and disagreement but sometimes its healthy to have some debate. Just try to keep it from getting too personal!

[vintageproductions]

This is not going to get locked, unless it gets out of hand.

We have two members disagreeing and that will bring out good points.

If it goes off course it will get locked but as long as it stays as it is, it will remain open.

[Niner Alpha]

Vintageproductions, I didn't answer your Cheap Charlie story because I find fault with it and it was not germane to the main argument defining the difference between real and fake. I don't give a darn about your Cheap Charlie one way or the other other than I am not buying more than a marginal bit of your story.. The patch on the left that I posted as an example was made in 1970 for Bravo Company 6th of the 31st. I know this because a member of that company posted it on my site. That other patch was just taken off of ebay, picked at random by myself as an example, back a year or so ago to show guys at my other site from Bravo that if they wanted a royal non such that was kinda sorta right they could get it off of ebay for a few dollars. If Cheap Charlie was making them back in 69...from before the original design... or shortly after...why didn't he make the ones for the company and short change the retail market that didn't exist then, or more truely do so to represent what he was selling as being "authentic"? I think your Cheap Charlie story covers a multitude of sins in place of some objective research.

 

As to my expertise... I don't have any patch knowledge except in a very narrow way related to my own experience. One thing I do know by looking at your retail site... and I sent you a pm saying this hours ago... was that of the few patches in the multitude you offer that I know something about I take issue with a couple of them as you advertise them. One you have listed...or had before I told you in the pm... as a MAC V Recondo patch. I strongly believe , if it is real, it is a Recondo Brigade patch. The Recondo Brigade was the first Brigade of the 9th Division. My battalion was in the Recondo brigade until mid 69 when it went to the only remaining Third brigade when the rest of the 9th pulled out of Vietnam. A friend still has his recondo patch attached to his jungle hat. If you were to offer it for what it is anybody who is a fan of that reprobate David Hackworth and his Steel My Soldiers Hearts would probably pay more for it than a MAC V patch.

 

I'll attach the same photo I sent you in the PM

[TrenchfootJoe66]

For the most part, up to this point, the discussion has been pretty civil and informative. But Niner Alpha, with all due respect, please dial it back a little. Lets get back to the merits of the patch in question. Disparaging reputable dealers doesn't do anything to further the discussion and just annoys and alienates folks.

Ive learned a lot regarding Viet made patches from this site, I and many others want to learn more but we are learning nothing at this point.

Remember the Golden Rule ?

As for the Cheap Charlie "story", Ive talked to ALOT of very knowledgeable collectors regarding this issue. Including folks who were there, in country, and were actively collecting at the time. IMO Bobs simple and concise explanation is about as accurate and straight forward as it gets. If you don't agree, then tell us what you know, just leave out the venom.

Thanks

Joe sends

[Survival]

Just a generic side note to this. Reproductions are becoming a serious problem in our hobby and a lot of others. When our generation is gone many of the items we know as being reproductions will be accepted as authentic by collectors of the future. The dealers and collectors that are flogging this stuff now are really doing a disservice to the future generations. As its been said many times before when we expose the fakes and explain the differences as to how you can tell we are not only aiding the collector but also the faker. Some years back I remember reading an article regarding fake German Iron Crosses. Well written article that cast some doubt on there actual war time use of a specific commonly hallmarked version. I remember the next issue of that magazine had a note from the publisher basically apologizing for the article and stating the opinions were the author's not the publisher's. So obviously there was a lot of pushback but no formal rebuttal to the facts of the article. Happens here frequently also. Somebody posts something to have it authenticated, half the people say its good and half say its phony. We all have opinions some are educated and some are not.

[marentius]

This debate is way too interesting for me to reamin a silent witness so I have to throw in my 2cents ($ or it's your choice)!just for these two patches,having a chance to know what a real one looks like I would not be decieved (hopefully) by the one on the right because it lacks way too details just to tell the first thing that comes to my mind looking st the two patches.

It's a matter of learning to read the small lines thanks to the books,experience, sometimes some lessons learned the hard way and the help of this Forum and its many great members I have had the pleasure to meet here.I wish there could be a picture showing the actual wear of every unofficial patch or uniform or whatever.I have been dealing in the past with Repubblica Sociale Italiana militaria,that is the uniforms and equipments worn by the fascist troops in northern Italy in the last 16 months of ww2.War was almost over,there was an almost complete lack of raw materials,there were a lot of military and paramilitary armed groups,each of them had its own insignia and there is an almost complete lack of official documentations and just few pics showing the wear of some of these patches.

Here situation is somehow different,although for what I know every soldier could have had any kind of patch design made,no matter if it was an official or unofficial patch,no atter if it was to be worn by a whole division or just by a small group of soldiers sharing the same time in that same TOE.

That's why sometimes I guess it's quite difficult to get the 100% proof that the patch was done and worn there.As in the case of the ww2 R.S.I. Patches the problems come when these things start to become quite expensive and the risk of getting burned very hard gets higher and higher.

We are still lucky to have a chance to get the memories of those who were there,although sometimes memories too can be wrong after 40 years.I still do believe that hard work ( that is study) is the only way to avoid awful surprises.

 

 

 

Well..." but the Vietnamese aren't stupid. They know what to make and sell things, and how to make money." So what keeps them from using hand guided machines if the hand guided machines make better bogus patches?

 

Here are two patches. Looks like both of them are pretty crudely made. But...the one on the left is real and the one on the right....of which ebay is always full of fromj one source or the other... is bogus. Can you tell me why you know the one on the right is bogus and the one on the left is not? Just from the construction standpoint.

 

example.jpg

[36-tex]

Patches were made in Nam that were never worn. Either they were novelty or so unofficial they were never used. Many were made that simply were packed away with other personal items, never to see the light of day again. Soooo, if you argue a patch was never worn and therefore it is "fake", well that would be incorrect.

[TrenchfootJoe66]

Just a generic side note to this. Reproductions are becoming a serious problem in our hobby and a lot of others. When our generation is gone many of the items we know as being reproductions will be accepted as authentic by collectors of the future. The dealers and collectors that are flogging this stuff now are really doing a disservice to the future generations. As its been said many times before when we expose the fakes and explain the differences as to how you can tell we are not only aiding the collector but also the faker. Some years back I remember reading an article regarding fake German Iron Crosses. Well written article that cast some doubt on there actual war time use of a specific commonly hallmarked version. I remember the next issue of that magazine had a note from the publisher basically apologizing for the article and stating the opinions were the author's not the publisher's. So obviously there was a lot of pushback but no formal rebuttal to the facts of the article. Happens here frequently also. Somebody posts something to have it authenticated, half the people say its good and half say its phony. We all have opinions some are educated and some are not.

 

This brings up an issue Ive run into before. Ive met many many collectors who say things like, 'I don't touch Vietnam patches because there are too many fakes. OK, fair enough, there are a lot of fakes out there. But I don't think the number of fake Nam patches even comes close to the number of fake Third Reich or US airborne items out there. In terms are pure numbers it only stands to reason. There were "fake" german badges being made the day after the friggin war ended.

I also watch ebay, like just about everybody else, I watch the mountains of fake insignia just to keep abreast. IMO, the fakers, in general, are NOT making better fakes now. The vast majority of the stuff I see is laughable. A few, a very few, dealers/sellers are selling passable copies of original patches. Almost all of the fake patches on ebay are just plain awful for a whole variety of reasons. Anyway, just my two piasters.

Sorry for sort of hijacking this thread but it stopped being relevant awhile back anyway.

[Niner Alpha]

For the most part, up to this point, the discussion has been pretty civil and informative. But Niner Alpha, with all due respect, please dial it back a little. Lets get back to the merits of the patch in question. Disparaging reputable dealers doesn't do anything to further the discussion and just annoys and alienates folks.

Ive learned a lot regarding Viet made patches from this site, I and many others want to learn more but we are learning nothing at this point.

Remember the Golden Rule ?

As for the Cheap Charlie "story", Ive talked to ALOT of very knowledgeable collectors regarding this issue. Including folks who were there, in country, and were actively collecting at the time. IMO Bobs simple and concise explanation is about as accurate and straight forward as it gets. If you don't agree, then tell us what you know, just leave out the venom.

Thanks

Joe sends

 

 

Ok... If it's all my fault and I'm disparaging reputable dealers and annoying and alienating people. I'll check fire. It's not like I paid any money for the patch. If the buyer and seller are happy who am I to ask questions about authenticity. Amen, brother.