Patchcollector Posted July 19, 2014 Share #1 Posted July 19, 2014 Good Friday evening patch peeps.It's not often that I am blessed to pick up one of Mr.Bill Scott's fine offerings.Not that I don't want more,it's just that I usually get outbid! Anyhoo,I want to share this,as it is one that I had never seen until I recently.I'm trying to research this,but am coming up with little to no info.I know that for a time the 335th RRU handled the signal intercept duties for the ninth,but they had their own distinctive insignia.This may be for a unit raised "from within" after the 335th left.(?) If anyone has any info to add to this,please do. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share #2 Posted July 19, 2014 Back view.This piece is rather thick within the inner circle.If you look close,I believe that there is paper with writing on it (not the handwritten words on the back)sandwiched inside the patch.Probably used by the maker as a "stiffening" measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldfireguy Posted July 19, 2014 Share #3 Posted July 19, 2014 I've never seen that patch before but that's the only one I have ever seen that had the black on top instead of the bottom where it is suppose to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share #4 Posted July 19, 2014 Here is one I found on the Facebook Vietnam Radio Research page http://mbasic.facebook.com/UnlikelyWarriors/photos/o.207936482571806/552235504874143/?type=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niner Alpha Posted July 19, 2014 Share #5 Posted July 19, 2014 I'm with oldfireguy. Amazing how people making bogus patches can't even do a little research before they make them. On the other hand, looks like they can still get away with selling them to the unsuspecting. I don't know who Bill Scott is but he's obviously no expert about whatever patches he is selling. And that's being kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36-tex Posted July 19, 2014 Share #6 Posted July 19, 2014 Niner Alpha, if Bill said it is original I will side with him a majority of the time. As far as the dark being on top of the 9th insignia, quality control on subdued patches was not that good. Reversed colored patches show up all the time in every style so I would not base my judgement on this being real or not on that factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldfireguy Posted July 19, 2014 Share #7 Posted July 19, 2014 Please don't take my comments that this is not a real patch. I was just pointing out I had never seen one with the black on top. Very easily could have been a run of patches make incorrectly. If Bill said it was real I would side with him also. It could be these guys did it purposely as a poke in the eye to the ninth too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted July 19, 2014 Share #8 Posted July 19, 2014 Here is a photo of one with a different backing material that I kept as reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share #9 Posted July 19, 2014 I'm with oldfireguy. Amazing how people making bogus patches can't even do a little research before they make them. On the other hand, looks like they can still get away with selling them to the unsuspecting. I don't know who Bill Scott is but he's obviously no expert about whatever patches he is selling. And that's being kind. Hahaaa I'm not even going to dignify this with an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share #10 Posted July 19, 2014 Although we'll probably never know for certain why the dark portion is at the top,this much is certain:all the examples posted here are made the same way.This was probably a small unit,so the entire batch ordered could have been erroneously made this way and the unit decided to keep them.Knowing the RR Team guys and their penchant for deception and mischief,I believe that oldfireguy's theory also has merit;that this was done purposely as some kind of inside joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Patrol Posted July 19, 2014 Share #11 Posted July 19, 2014 Most Radio research patches were not meant to be worn....usually when these guys did wear a patch, it was as a pocket hanger and they were told to do so for some inspection....guys that were in permanent, fixed positions would sometimes affix a patch to a jacket but this was unusual. Outside of a pocket hanger, most of these patches will be mint, unused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Patrol Posted July 19, 2014 Share #12 Posted July 19, 2014 I'm with oldfireguy. Amazing how people making bogus patches can't even do a little research before they make them. On the other hand, looks like they can still get away with selling them to the unsuspecting. I don't know who Bill Scott is but he's obviously no expert about whatever patches he is selling. And that's being kind. Niner Alpha Do you know anything about this patch or the Radio Research Unit it's suppose to represent? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niner Alpha Posted July 20, 2014 Share #13 Posted July 20, 2014 Take a look at this site. Look down to you find 335th Radio Research. http://oldspooksandspies.org/patches/patches.html Anybody that would think a unit of the 9th Division would make a patch with the colors upside down would have to show me some proof that would have to be more substantial than somebody who is selling something saying so. And...I don't know squat about the 335th radio research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Patrol Posted July 20, 2014 Share #14 Posted July 20, 2014 Ok....but the Radio Research guys always did things alittle differently than most regular army guys....so flipping an Insignia would be no big deal for them. I've been around these guys before at their reunions and I've been documenting their patches as much as I can. I'm not familiar with the patch in this thread but I'm always willing to learn something new. I would really love to see a picture of the patch in wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share #15 Posted July 20, 2014 Take a look at this site. Look down to you find 335th Radio Research. http://oldspooksandspies.org/patches/patches.html Anybody that would think a unit of the 9th Division would make a patch with the colors upside down would have to show me some proof that would have to be more substantial than somebody who is selling something saying so. And...I don't know squat about the 335th radio research. Actually,if you read through my first post,I merely mentioned the 335th but did not state that the patch I posted is a 335th piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niner Alpha Posted July 20, 2014 Share #16 Posted July 20, 2014 Ok... fair enough. But in the post where you stated you found the patch on a facebook page, in the bottom of that link that has a copy of your patch at the top it says: Photograph: Shoulder patch – Long Range Radio Research Teams, 335th RRD (ASA), 9th Infantry Division So either it's the 335th RRD patch or it isn't. If it isn't who's patch is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share #17 Posted July 20, 2014 Thanks for posting that.I had not read through the entire article on the Facebook page.If the ASA guys on their Facebook site have ID'd this as a 335th related piece,then who am I to argue with that? After all,they are the guys who served in the units.. I tell you what,I'm going to address this issue with the guys from the Facebook page,and if I get a reply,I'll post it here. In the meantime,I would like to state that I'm confident that this patch is an authentic,Vietnam war era incountry made piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share #18 Posted July 20, 2014 While I'm awaiting a reply from the guys at the Facebook site,I'd like to put forth a few theories as to what this patch signifies.First,as I stated earlier,from what I've been able to research,it seems that at some point the 335th moved and may have been assigned to support other units.They may have trained a unit,organic to the 9th,that would assume the duties that the 335th had done,making this patch,for lack of a better description,a "transition" piece. Or,it could just be another patch that the 335th had made up for themselves.It was not uncommon for units to have several patch designs during their time in theatre. But these are just theories I'm throwing out there,what really matters,to me anyway,is that several other examples have been found and posted here that have the same reversed colors,and one of them came from an ASA Facebook page.For me,that is evidence enough of the pieces' authenticity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Scott Posted July 20, 2014 Share #19 Posted July 20, 2014 Niner Alpha let me introduce myself my name is Bill Scott also known on ebay as rarepatchman.I am a 74 year old patch dealer with 35 years of honest business under my belt.I have more than a passing interest in selling and dealing in real period insignia.The insignia that started this post is guaranteed an original period Vietnam War piece.If I put on a reproduction insignia it is listed as such.I probably do not know very much compared to the Scholars and Authors in this hobby but I know enough to have hundreds of collectors that I call friends across the world.The Vietnamese tailors screwed up a lot missspelled words, reversed colors and objects, you name it they did it.This does not make a piece fake to be sold to the unsuspecting but is in fact a variation of a units insignia.Why is a 100th infantry WW2 patch with reversed colors a 4-5 hundred dollar insignia or a reversed Service command with a color mix up a 200.00 patch any different than a 9th Radio Research from the Vietnam War that has mixed up colors.If you need references on what I know,or who I know, or how honest I am please PM me and I will supply you with as many names as you need.Bill Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted July 20, 2014 Share #20 Posted July 20, 2014 Patch looks fine, like has already been stated probably a tailor shop error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor996 Posted July 20, 2014 Share #21 Posted July 20, 2014 I'm with oldfireguy. Amazing how people making bogus patches can't even do a little research before they make them. On the other hand, looks like they can still get away with selling them to the unsuspecting. I don't know who Bill Scott is but he's obviously no expert about whatever patches he is selling. And that's being kind. :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niner Alpha Posted July 20, 2014 Share #22 Posted July 20, 2014 Bill, my opinion wasn't that you were dishonest but that you are likely in error in your judgement about the genuineness of the patch based on the upside down design factor of the octofoil. At the moment an email is making the rounds of a radio research veteran outfit, the one I posted a link to...different from the facebook site, asking if any actual veteran of such units while in Vietnam have any knowledge of the patch. One of their members has more than a passing interest in the subject of patches and may be able to offer an educated opinion. Bill....how do you...or anybody else who has blasted me in this string.... know the patch shown is actually linked to and made for a radio research military outfit and dates from the time of the Vietnam war? Did you get it from a veteran who brought it back? What's the story behind it? By the way... put in "Radio Research patch" in Ebay right now and you can find four or five of the same design for sale for less than $20. This doesn't mean there wasn't a real one ..but.. it does make the design more suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted July 20, 2014 Share #23 Posted July 20, 2014 Niner Alpha while we know you are a Veteran from Vietnam, are you a patch collector? While you were in Vietnam did you study or even care about the local made patches? Probably not as you had much more important things to worry about then how a local tailor shop made this or any other patch. Now you are arguing with numerous collectors, some of whom have collected Vietnamese made patches for 30+ plus years. They have studied the types of thread used, the types of embroidery, background materials, etc. Also it is very common knowledge that local Vietnamese tailors would make mistakes ( spelling, colors, proper directions) when they made patches, as usually there was a language barrier and things didn't always come out 100% exact. Your theory on how could this patch could be related to a Radio Research unit, doesn't hold water. Every tour, sometimes numerous times throughout a tour, guys in small units ( ex. Radio Research units) would or could change designs of their unofficial pocket patch as many times as they wanted. By putting in one forum doesn't mean you will be in contact with anyone who was with a unit, like this, from the beginning until the end. What may have happened or been worn during one soldier's tour will not be the same as the next person through the unit. While we are on it, I have not seen anyone "blast" you in the thread. It is more like you are blasting collectors, because somehow you feel you know more then they do in their chosen field of collecting. Lastly using Ebay as you source of original material really leaves a lot to be desired. For every one real vintage Vietnamese made piece, it is very easily possible that you will see 20-30 fakes of that same design listed on Ebay. Where do you think the fakers on Ebay get their designs? They troll forums like this, veteran websites, military dealer websites, and Ebay itself. They then crank them out as quick as possible in Vietnam today and get them listed on Ebay as fast as possible. Usually within the first week they are then copied by the rest of the fakers, that are doing the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share #24 Posted July 21, 2014 Contacting the vets is sometimes helpful,and sometimes not.When I started collecting patches and I picked one up I would often search the unit sites,looking for contact info from the unit members.If I found anything, I would contact them and respectfully ask if they had any personal info about the patch,unit,experiences in Nam,etc.. I had some great responses,and made some friends,but I also had more than a few guys tell me they had never seen the patches I showed them. I remember one guy in particular,he angrily let me know that there was "no way his unit would ever have an ugly patch like that". It was a 46th Scout dog piece that I was certain was authentic.It is located in the bottom right hand corner of this photo from an older post of mine. After that I quit trying to contact vets,as I did'nt want to upset anybody. The point is,sometimes the vets will recognize a patch,sometimes not,probably due to their not being there when that particular design was in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottplen Posted July 21, 2014 Share #25 Posted July 21, 2014 If Bill says its real its real . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts