Civil War Petty Officer Patch

[gunbunnyB/3/75FA]

why, they were hand stitched?

after reviewing my copy of the uniforms of the united states navy by james c. tilly,. it mentions that in the regs of 1866 jumpers "were to be neatly sewn" i believe that would indicate hand sewing. if i remember correctly sewing machines were not readily available until the early "70"s

[Patchcollector]

This pic is post 1886. The frock. (Jumper ) was worn tucked in until 1911. The white lanyard was part of the uniform from 1886 until 1913. Jpers from 1886 to 1921 were pinked to cut down on bulk when tucked

 

Thanks for the info.I have alot to learn when it comes to uniforms!

[sigsaye]

Piping and stars were NOT regulation on jumpers until the 1866 regs. At that time, it was 1 stripe for Landsman, 2 strThey were used as personal decoration occasionally prior to that, but only rarely and only on those uniforms wore on liberty. Cap ribbons, again we're NOT regulation until after 1866, and odd NOT use the prefix USS until that time. While broad fall trousers were worn, the standard regulation trousers of the Navy until,1886 were fly fronts. Broad fall trousers were reserved mostly for liberty uniforms. The hat in the preceding photos is way to large fromCW. CW era hats were generally 10 inches across. In 1886, the hat was increased to 14 inches and remained that width until 1933. Pies for Ordinary Seaman, 3 stripes for Able Seaman and 4 stripes for Petty Officer. This was soon changed in the 1870 to 1, 2 or 3 stripes on the cuffs for the above rates and 3 stripes on the collar for every one. The stripe on the sleeve of the Sailor in the above pic is called a "Watch Mark" and designates what "Watch, (Port on the left sleeve and Starboard on the right) the Sailor is assigned to, in 1893, this becomes a "Group Rate Mark,". Designating Deck or Engineering of non rated men.

 

In 1886, when the fall front trousers were adopted as regulation for enlisted Sailors, they had 11 buttons. In 1893 it was decided to deepen the fall and 2 more buttons were added increasing the number to 13 buttons.

 

I'm not sure who wrote that piece above about the sailor from the Alabama, but they really have no idea what they are taking about. Also, the book by Tilly is pretty much worthless as a resource, as it regurgitates myth which about 40 years ago was busted by real research, such as looking at documented photos of real CW Sailors.

 

I think what you have here is a real PO badge which has been added to a Span Am jumper. A hat from a civilian "Middie" suit and possibility an actual cap ribbon. I have seen horrible things done to original Naval uniforms by reenactors, I have seen these same things passed off as originals to those who don't know what they are looking at. Locally, we have a WW1 undress blue jumper with an 1866 PO badge template sewn onto it and it is displayed as a CW PO jumper. It happens.

[navyman]

Thanks Steve,

I thought so but when I look at some illustrations it has the piping on and that thru me off.

[gunbunnyB/3/75FA]

i had not heard that the tilly book was so wrong, my appologies.

[Patchcollector]

Piping and stars were NOT regulation on jumpers until the 1866 regs. At that time, it was 1 stripe for Landsman, 2 strThey were used as personal decoration occasionally prior to that, but only rarely and only on those uniforms wore on liberty. Cap ribbons, again we're NOT regulation until after 1866, and odd NOT use the prefix USS until that time. While broad fall trousers were worn, the standard regulation trousers of the Navy until,1886 were fly fronts. Broad fall trousers were reserved mostly for liberty uniforms. The hat in the preceding photos is way to large fromCW. CW era hats were generally 10 inches across. In 1886, the hat was increased to 14 inches and remained that width until 1933. Pies for Ordinary Seaman, 3 stripes for Able Seaman and 4 stripes for Petty Officer. This was soon changed in the 1870 to 1, 2 or 3 stripes on the cuffs for the above rates and 3 stripes on the collar for every one. The stripe on the sleeve of the Sailor in the above pic is called a "Watch Mark" and designates what "Watch, (Port on the left sleeve and Starboard on the right) the Sailor is assigned to, in 1893, this becomes a "Group Rate Mark,". Designating Deck or Engineering of non rated men.

 

In 1886, when the fall front trousers were adopted as regulation for enlisted Sailors, they had 11 buttons. In 1893 it was decided to deepen the fall and 2 more buttons were added increasing the number to 13 buttons.

 

I'm not sure who wrote that piece above about the sailor from the Alabama, but they really have no idea what they are taking about. Also, the book by Tilly is pretty much worthless as a resource, as it regurgitates myth which about 40 years ago was busted by real research, such as looking at documented photos of real CW Sailors.

 

I think what you have here is a real PO badge which has been added to a Span Am jumper. A hat from a civilian "Middie" suit and possibility an actual cap ribbon. I have seen horrible things done to original Naval uniforms by reenactors, I have seen these same things passed off as originals to those who don't know what they are looking at. Locally, we have a WW1 undress blue jumper with an 1866 PO badge template sewn onto it and it is displayed as a CW PO jumper. It happens.

 

 

Thanks again for all the interesting info.I'm learning alot here.Perhaps it is you that should write a book on this subject!

[sigsaye]

Thanks again for all the interesting info.I'm learning alot here.Perhaps it is you that should write a book on this subject!

I was working up the research to make sure it was correct and another guy, who writes books about forts, got one published by the publisher that published the series on WW2 Navy uniforms. It also simply regurgitates much Tilly and a bit of Todd (also wrong), so no market for me. I have been collecting and Studying Navy uniforms, Sailors and their material culture for about 50 years. The last 15 pretty much exclusively American Civil War. Most people do not realize the Navy makes substantial changes to enlisted uniforms about every 10 years or so. Granted, they keep pretty close to traditional style and color, but fabric, cut and construction differ. But to the casual observer, it all looks the same.

 

Since I can't put out a book, I try to put out as much info out as I can through these forums to those who care. My wife gets a bit annoyed at me giving it away for free, but what ever, education is more important. My first response to day was from the side of a hill where I was taking a break from fixing fence where the cattle were getting out. Priorities.