My small cloth WWII Submarine badge collection

[kyhistorian01]

Here are the examples I have come across over the years for enlisted submarine badges (cloth) from the WWII era

[gunbunnyB/3/75FA]

never saw that black on grey before, love that non-reg. whale version.

[manayunkman]

I like your collection.

[Josh B.]

It would be great to tie these to individual manufacturers. To start, I believe the bottom right was sold by NS Meyer.

[Tim B]

Here's a question; I see these often coming up on Ebay and the prices are pretty cheap, are they being faked yet and if so, are there indicators to look out for?

 

Tim

[gunbunnyB/3/75FA]

i have a couple as well, i personally never seen a repo except a few that were on some movie costume uniforms that i got stuck with, i don't think the repop'ers have noticed these yet as the price is still low to make much of a profit on them. but that's mho.

[horsa]

Loads of repos on ebay. Best to stick to examples that are on uniforms or show evidence of having been on a uniform. Glue residue, from scrapbook examples, also good.

[Tim B]

Recently added a few cloth items that came with a mix of sub badges from a retired sub captain. Supposedly, these were from his father, who was a sub LCDR during WW2 and are part of his old collection.

 

I know little on cloth but they appear to be genuine when comparing to other examples. Comments welcome.

 

Enlisted blue on white:

[Tim B]

Close up of the front embroidery:

 

[Tim B]

and the reverse threading:

[Tim B]

The enlisted white on blue:

 

Note: These actually look more black in hand but under the bright light it has the bluish tint to the backing material.

[Tim B]

The front embroidery again:

[Tim B]

and the reverse:

[Tim B]

This one I'm not sure about. At first, I thought it was a bullion officer breast insignia. Then, looking in Jone's reference on submarine badges, he shows similar sleeve insignia for CPO's, though the patterns shown are not quite like this example.

 

Again, it was hard to capture the exact colorations and details with the camera but the bullion work is pretty nice IMO.

[Tim B]

A close up of the bullion and it still doesn't do it real justice.

 

[Tim B]

The reverse is interesting with a lot going on. The orange-yellow stitching and that white fabric would normally give me pause but I just don't know enough about cloth items. I do see remnants of an off-white paper backing around the edges (red pointers) and what appears to be clear glue residue (red circled).

 

Thoughts? This might actually be from the son that was serving during the 1960's, I just don't know.

 

Tim

[Tim B]

Thought I would add this tidbit of information here for those that might be interested as it shows the authorizing authority for this insignia.

From U.S. Navy & Coast Guard Enlisted Ratings, Insignia & Specialty Marks, by John A. Stacey, published circa 1985.

 

[Justin B.]

This one I'm not sure about. At first, I thought it was a bullion officer breast insignia. Then, looking in Jone's reference on submarine badges, he shows similar sleeve insignia for CPO's, though the patterns shown are not quite like this example.

 

 

I would be surprised if it were for a CPO in gold embroidery. Silver embroidered, on the other hand, would be fairly common, matching the eagle and specialty marks from the rating badge. Pretty sure this is an officer example. A real beauty, anyway!

 

Justin B.

[Tim B]

Yes, I tend to agree with that thought process and figured they were bullion breast dolphins from either the father or son, as both served in submarines. I've seen a similar bullion set elsewhere on this forum that had this same type backing, so I'm more comfortable with them after seeing that set.

 

Thanks Justin!

 

Tim

[Justin B.]

Note also the curved bottom line of the waves, like the contour of the pin badge. The embroidered enlisted insignia were usually flat across the bottom. Gold embroidered officer dolphins were not authorized until 1951, before that it was pins only, though embroidered aviation wings had been around for a long time and no doubt some submarine officers had embroidered dolphins before they became official.

[Josh B.]

Note also the curved bottom line of the waves, like the contour of the pin badge. The embroidered enlisted insignia were usually flat across the bottom. Gold embroidered officer dolphins were not authorized until 1951, before that it was pins only, though embroidered aviation wings had been around for a long time and no doubt some submarine officers had embroidered dolphins before they became official.

 

Yes, 1930's and WWII period photos exist that document the wear of embroidered dolphins by qualified officers. Such images are scarce though, indicating most opted to wear the standard pinned device. There was a nice example of a WWII era jacket on this forum with prewar sewn ribbons and embroidered gold dolphins that was featured on this forum a number of years ago. It clearly bounced between collections on ebay a couple times. The final time it was offered for sale, it failed to meet a steep reserve and I haven't seen it since.

 

I approach embroidered gold dolphins with due caution. Anything advertised as WWII era or should be supported with pattern verification via period photos. One more reason I eventually want to get around to writing that book...