Jump to content

"DEVIL DOG" has become a derisive term in the New Corps!


bobgee
 Share

Recommended Posts

"Semper Fi.....Do or Die, Devil Dog Marine" a great greeting from one Marine to another....or so I thought until I found the article linked below in the Marine Corps Times. thumbdown.gif It says that today's young Marines think it's a negative term! "Teufelhunden or Devil Dogs the Germans called the Marines in France in WWI. It stuck or so I thought throughout the 20th Century. The tradition of drinking from the Devil Dog Fountain for enhanced longevity, in the town square of Belleau just down the way from the Bois de Belleau or Belleau Wood, I thought was iron-clad ledgend in the Corps. Hoisting a brew to your fellow "Devil Dogs" was a natural thing! Guess now I'm just another old "jarhead" who hasn't gotten the word. This article suggests that that the Corps needs to do more work on History & Traditions in Boot Camp. crying.gif These traditions are the spine of our Marine Corps. Without them we're just another group of troops! I still plan to greet Marines, young or old, with my favorite greeting above! My 2-cents. What do you Marines think about this subject? Semper Fi.....Bobgee

 

Click on this Link to read the article:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2008/...vildog_042708w/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

101combatvet

How the world has changed. Today, while going to the "O" club for lunch I noticed a few young officers stopping traffic to walk across the road. Damn near took them 5 minutes to get to the other side.... I've never seen anyone walk so slow. I range walk every where I go.... maybe when someone starts shooting at them they'll learn to pick up the pace. Off topic but I couldn't resist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The most telling comments in the article are in these paragraphs:

 

“I think the backlash against ‘Devil Dog’ does begin with the leadership. [Noncommissioned officers] (myself included) use the following phrase, ‘HEY, DEVIL DOG!’ to initiate a ‘correction’ when we don’t know exactly who the Marine may be. Thusly, hearing the phrase Devil Dog creates a negative Pavlovian response in Marines. As they come up in the Corps, the response stays,” one Marine wrote.

 

“We may be proud of the name, but nowadays it does carry a connotation of condescension.”

 

One Marine major agreed that the new negative connotation stems from discipline. “It’s a preface to getting your rump chewed,” he said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

teufelhunde.ret
Guess now I'm just another old "jarhead" who hasn't gotten the word. This article suggests that that the Corps needs to do more work on History & Traditions in Boot Camp. crying.gif These traditions are the spine of our Marine Corps. Without them we're just another group of troops! I still plan to greet Marines, young or old, with my favorite greeting above! My 2-cents. What do you Marines think about this subject? Semper Fi.....Bobgee

 

Ditto that!!!!!!! This completely ridiculous, after reading the article I perceive there is a distinct need for today's leadership within the Corps to address this matter ASAP and put this matter to bed. It starts in boot camp... history & traditions, what are they teaching... squad-bay etiquette? Dan Daly must be rolling in his grave. Whats next changing the Marine Corps Hymn, dropping Semper Fi from our vernacular?

 

And NO... I am not changing my screen name. Love it or leave it but get over it, its about our history and lore. Semper Fi, Darrell

 

BTW, would love to know who mucked up the Wikopedia page? evilgrin.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I just saw this. I'm with you Bob... It boils my blood just thinkin about it.

 

SEMPER FI TO ALL YOU DEVILDOGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Chuck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree with some of the comments in the article. It has become the preface to an rump-chewing, not so much by NCOs, but by Staff NCOs. I've noticed it since I joined 4 years ago. And the junior Marines stop responding to it after MOS school...

 

However, I have no problem with it. I called a PFC Devil Dog last week and he said that's considered hazing since that article said it's an unliked phrase. I nearly choke-slammed him. Hazing...these kids don't know the meaning of the word

Link to comment
Share on other sites

think.gif Mmmmmmmmm,the new kinder,polical correct Marine Corps.I guess they cant call them maggots anymore?Some private may be scarred for life and feel hazed.Guess the world is changing...cant wait for the out come of the Presidential election.Whats next holding hands??

 

RON

Link to comment
Share on other sites

don't get me started on the new gentler military. hope the mothers of America are happy when their kids don't come home because their implied restrictions got in the way of proper training pinch.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Caution: This is an Army story, not Marine, but closely related to the idiocracy mentioned in the article.

 

We have a SSG in our unit that was a Drill Sergeant before he came to us. Aside from telling us great story's about some of the stupid things new recruits do, he told us that in Basic Training the Drill Sergeants are NOT allowed to call a private by their rank. They must call the trainee's 'Warrior' or 'Soldier' since the word 'Private' apparently is demeaning. Hmmm, so it would appear that the nomenclature of their rank is demeaning to the poor little private's, excuse me 'Warriors,' who now enlist in the army. I suppose they could always whip out their stress cards if things get a little too much for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

teufelhunde.ret
Caution: Hmmm, so it would appear that the nomenclature of their rank is demeaning to the poor little private's, excuse me 'Warriors,' who now enlist in the army. I suppose they could always whip out their stress cards if things get a little too much for them.

 

Does that mean they qualify for a Purple Heart to ? disgust.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At least in Marine Corps Bootcamp they can still call recruits 'things' and make them refer to themselves in third person. The title 'Warrior' isn't granted until the end

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does that mean they qualify for a Purple Heart to ? disgust.gif

 

Oh man, I hope so. hahaha

 

I think we all must realize that this is the effect of a "kinder, gentler machine gun hand."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Caution: This is an Army story, not Marine, but closely related to the idiocracy mentioned in the article.

 

We have a SSG in our unit that was a Drill Sergeant before he came to us. Aside from telling us great story's about some of the stupid things new recruits do, he told us that in Basic Training the Drill Sergeants are NOT allowed to call a private by their rank. They must call the trainee's 'Warrior' or 'Soldier' since the word 'Private' apparently is demeaning. Hmmm, so it would appear that the nomenclature of their rank is demeaning to the poor little private's, excuse me 'Warriors,' who now enlist in the army. I suppose they could always whip out their stress cards if things get a little too much for them.

 

 

Stress cards? I have been hearing a lot of stress cards lately, but is this real or ? think.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've heard it said many times, and it's worth repeating: "Political Correctness" is a sickness which, if not medicated/amputated, will kill the patient, be that patient a person, organization or country.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At least in Marine Corps Bootcamp they can still call recruits 'things' and make them refer to themselves in third person. The title 'Warrior' isn't granted until the end

 

I remember when I went through Army Basic in 88 they told the Drills they were not allowed to swear anymore, as we came of the busses the Senior Drill read us something to that effect , and I remember him asking if anyone had a problem with strong language , and of course no one said a thing , exept for this little guy from down south somewhere who stated that it was against his religion , to which the drill responded " well when you think I'm gonna start swearing , put your F*ckin fingers in your ears. " The kid actually tryed for a while but he must have given up since every other word was swearing.

 

Reminds me of something else that happend at the same time , they were going down the line and screaming at everyone and they stopped at the recruit just before me and asked him where he was from ( we had gone through MEPS together in Oakland ) " Marin Sir ! " for which he got chewed out to no end for with the usual " I work for a living .." and then they asked where the hell that was anyway , " near San Franciso ! " to which the Senior Drill replied " your name is gonna be Private Faggot from now on !'

 

I was next and they asked where I was from " Santa Cruz , Drill Sargent ! "

Where the hell is that? " near LA , Sargent " ( over 350 miles away ) " well , were gonna call you Hollywood. "

 

"Pvt Hollywood , see if you can get Pvt. Faggot squared away."

 

I got lucky and Hollywood stuck.

 

Most Drills called us Trainee or Recruit until after Basic when in AIT we were addressed by rank , and only when we got finished with training and were sent to our duty station were we called Soldiers.

 

we all addressed each other by last names as displayed on the nametapes , I remember how weird it sounded to finally hear someones first name .

 

If they stopped calling the Trainees Devil dogs , and started using it after training it might come back into favor , and even be something to look forward to. Seems like it should be earned.

 

John

 

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DwightPruitt
Stress cards? I have been hearing a lot of stress cards lately, but is this real or ? think.gif

 

I always believed the stress card thing to be urban legend. Snopes has an article on them that states they were a short-lived USN thing where the recruit was given a card that listed the various sailor support services. Some recruits began waving them around when under stress, and cards were quickly withdrawn.

 

http://www.snopes.com/military/stress.htm

 

When I was in the Army, I was loaded down with various little cards- weapons card, meal card, gas mask card, chain of command card, General Orders and Code of Conduct cards (even though you were required to memorize them) and various and sundry other cards that were supposed to give me handy-dandy information at the tip of a hat. Problem was you had to flip through all of the cards to get that info . ;)

 

I always looked askance at the whole "warrior" thing too. I considered myself first and foremost a soldier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
Guest R. Hoq

Yep, "Devil Dog" has become somewhat of a derisive term... I remember when I entered Camp Lejeune for infantry school way back in 1999, the staff, when addressing us would use the same lines we heard at Parris Island, except they replaced "recruit" with "devil dog." It certainly didn't make us feel that special ;)

Don't get me wrong though, it's not always a bad term. I still use it when I can't remember the name of a "new join." I think it would be unfair to blame everything on political correctness, but personal preference... for example, when looking for volunteers for an assignment, I NEVER say "Give me ten bodies!" I always say "Give me ten Marines!".... I do not consider barring racial epithets as political correctness. I remember after 9/11 and especially during OIF 1 (the initial invasion, I was a Cpl then), some LCpl had the nerve to call "raghead".... lets just say that he was "corrected" real quick.... some other knucklehead called me "hadgi," I took it somewhat personally... I still get it from time to time from new kids... and even more from people on the street back home (you should be able to figure out my background by now).

Either way gentlemen, the American language naturally changes overtime, so will military speak...

 

Semper Fi,

Sgt Hoq, USMC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

All I can say is OI VEY! I was/is proud to be referred to as a Devil Dog. I appreciate the candor of the Marine who explained the current usage of the term, but I hope he gets it that it should be used as an earned title. Often it only takes one person to shift a tide.

Anyway, my two cents,

Fielding (Capa)

Platoon 1064

Parris Island Recruit Depot

Graduated Boot Camp in August, 1983

Semper Fi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Ge;ntlemen:

 

Normally I would not weight in on something like this subject but after reading the comments I felt compelled to say something. "Polical Correctness" in this country is becoming too painful to bear. I must say I am not a Marine, however I was an Air Force radar repair man 1956 to 60 so have some rights.

 

I believe that the Marines who fought in WW1 against front line German troops must have been tought fighters, tough enough to earn the respect of those Germans. Names given by an enemy who thinks enough of you to name you shows the depth he has come to respect your abilities. I do not believe any Marine should feel degraded by the term"Devil Dog". rather proud to carry on that respect for future generations of Marines.

 

Marines, you earned that name, keep it, never let it go.

 

Pony Soldier

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the original article discussed was as much about Political Correctness and the "feelings" of junior Marines as much as it was about the shift in the meaning of the term "Devil Dog." In WWI when they found out the German troops were calling them Teufelhunden, the early Marines thought that was pretty cool. And for a long time in the Marine Corps, it was a term of honor and respect among Marines.

 

Now...not so much. "HEY, DEVILDOG" ALWAYS proceeds a butt-chewing for minor infractions such as having hands in pockets or stepping on the General's grass, or some such. Classical conditioning dictates that you hear "devildog" before a berating enough times, you're not gonna like being called by that name very much. Politically correctness though, I think has very little to do with that. Marines call eachother far worse names and it doesn't matter. But then again..."Hey A**Hole!" Has had the same negative connotation since the beginning of time, whereas "Hey Devildog" kinda fell into it's current place.

 

To me, I dont' give a crap one way or the other about political correctness, and from my experience, 99.99% of the Marine Corps doesn't either when addressing eachother, even senior to junior, but can also say with certainty, that the term "Devildog" is more and more frequently used as almost an insult moreso than an earned title, and that's pretty sad, but it's leaders who continue to use it in this way.

 

We used to call it "Getting Devildogged" -- as in to be caught doing something wrong by a senior Marine and screamed at for it. And when a boot marine gets "devildogged" he pops to attention, his muscles tighten, and he braces himself for a butt-chewing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I went through Army basic in 1968 (gawd, I'm old! LOL) they weren't "supposed" to be hitting us anymore. Well, I don't guess grabbing, throwing, catching then bouncing is technically "hitting" but....... LOL My senior DI had a tour in Vietnam under his belt. Was SSG Mendez tough? yeah, did he call us bad things? yeah, was it 1/10th of 1% as bad as anything in close contact combat, NO! If anything, mentally, it helped get me ready for what was coming down the road. I don't know if he's still living, but I would buy him a beer now! At the time? Well, maybe not! LOL

 

It's a shame to think that the USMC is going down the same road as the rest of us. I always thought that the Marines had it right, teaching their history in boot camp, starting everyone as an infantryman/rifleman regardless of MOS, etc. By the time I retired in 1996 I frankly was glad to leave the Army. It had become something that I didn't recognize anymore. I won't go any further than that.

 

John

 

 

 

I remember when I went through Army Basic in 88 they told the Drills they were not allowed to swear anymore, as we came of the busses the Senior Drill read us something to that effect , and I remember him asking if anyone had a problem with strong language , and of course no one said a thing , exept for this little guy from down south somewhere who stated that it was against his religion , to which the drill responded " well when you think I'm gonna start swearing , put your F*ckin fingers in your ears. " The kid actually tryed for a while but he must have given up since every other word was swearing.

 

Reminds me of something else that happend at the same time , they were going down the line and screaming at everyone and they stopped at the recruit just before me and asked him where he was from ( we had gone through MEPS together in Oakland ) " Marin Sir ! " for which he got chewed out to no end for with the usual " I work for a living .." and then they asked where the hell that was anyway , " near San Franciso ! " to which the Senior Drill replied " your name is gonna be Private Faggot from now on !'

 

I was next and they asked where I was from " Santa Cruz , Drill Sargent ! "

Where the hell is that? " near LA , Sargent " ( over 350 miles away ) " well , were gonna call you Hollywood. "

 

"Pvt Hollywood , see if you can get Pvt. Faggot squared away."

 

I got lucky and Hollywood stuck.

 

Most Drills called us Trainee or Recruit until after Basic when in AIT we were addressed by rank , and only when we got finished with training and were sent to our duty station were we called Soldiers.

 

we all addressed each other by last names as displayed on the nametapes , I remember how weird it sounded to finally hear someones first name .

 

If they stopped calling the Trainees Devil dogs , and started using it after training it might come back into favor , and even be something to look forward to. Seems like it should be earned.

 

John

 

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again -- the use of "Devil Dog" as a derisive term is something that began with senior leadership...and has just evolved through improper usage into something derogatory. Conversely...I was called "Babykiller" at several different Marine Corps installations, and it was said and taken in a very positive, somewhat joking manner, and not an insult or accusation as it was used in the 1960s.

 

I think if anything, it's a miracle "Devil Dog" has survived at all, given how many other names have come and gone...leatherneck is almost never used in conversation, nor is "jarhead" or "pollywog." And a lot of times, words just change meaning over the course of a few decades of use and misuse. Does the word "Gay" mean today what it meant in 1918?

 

Words and phrases fall in and out of usage all over the world...why should the Marine Corps be any different? That certainly doesn't mean the Marines have gone soft or have been infiltrated by communists, progressives, liberals, socialists, mothers of america, etc...and anyone who thinks they have is free to sign up and take their happy butt over to Iraq or Afghanistan and see for themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Strange to watch how these things evolve. Or de-volve as the case may be. When I went through bootcamp in 1989 we were called "recruit" until the end of 2nd phase. Then we were called "Private". All through that time we were also called a number of other things some of which are not suitable for broadcast. I got stuck with "portholes" for awhile. None of this really bothered most of us as we expected it from the beginning. On graduation day we were referred to as "Marines" for the first time. As I recall, Jarhead had become a negative term but DevilDog was not. None but another jarhead was allowed to call you jarhead.

 

However I'm not surprised to see this as I noticed the term "DevilDog" was being abused from both sides even back then.

 

From NCOs and above came the stupidly insulting term "DevilPup" to refer to the freshly minted "Marines" in their charge. There was no misperceiving that this was intended to keep those young Pfcs and Lance Coolies from thinking they were anything too special just yet. So much for all that recruiting station bs about how "Once you graduate you are a Marine just like me". No one warned us that in the "brotherhood of Marines", we would be the little brothers :huh: .

"DevilPup" always pissed me off.

 

From the other side, many of the non-rates with our lazy speech patterns were heard to contract Devil Dog down to just "Dawg". Got sick of that fast. It almost became a routine like "Who's on First";

Devil Pup 1 "Sup Dawg"

Devil Pup 2 "I'm not yer Dawg."

Fill in the rest with your own imagination.

 

Devil Dog was, is, and should continue to be an emblem of pride for all Marines. As I recall the term DevilDog(s) "Teufel Hund(en) came from a letter (to his sister) found on the body of a dead german officer. In it he described the tenacity of the Marines they had recently been fighting (as compared to the French troops they had fought previously) and that the Marines attacked "like the hounds of hell". A newspaper article written on the topic was actually the first reference to the Marines as "DevilDogs". It was later included in a letter from the Commandant or other official communication and was carved in stone from that time forward. Until now I guess.

 

Lastly as an historical note; you did occasionally hear the variation "Hell Hound" used from one Marine to another in 1989.

 

Later we'll cover the continuing devolution of "OOHRAH" but this is enough for now. I won't even bother with "Dark Green Marine."

 

Semper Fi, Hell Hounds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...