Rookie Posted May 28, 2014 Share #1 Posted May 28, 2014 Mods: I have re-posted here because I thought it to be more specific. Hi all, I am new to the forum and have recently become interested in collecting Pilot wings. I am having issues with telling the real from the fake so would just like some expert opinions on this set I found online. I know the Wallace Bishop Brisbane hallmarked ones are scarce and hard to come by. What would be a rough price on these? Thankyou in Advance M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skypilot6670 Posted May 28, 2014 Share #2 Posted May 28, 2014 These wings look good to me.Welcome to the forum.I suggest search Wallace Bishop as there are some very good threads on these and other commonwealth wings.Better pictures would help. Again welcome to the forum. Fraternally Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pconrad02 Posted May 28, 2014 Share #3 Posted May 28, 2014 First welcome to the forum! It is very difficult to tell if these wings are "real" due to the smal pictures. These are commonly faked and the large majority you see on eBay are repros. Just some advice, before you start collecting high end wings you need spend about what a real pair of these cost on a reference library. Then spend a few years just looking at real ones offered for sale by establisted dealers. In person, at shows is best. Then dive in. If I remember correctly the last real set.of.these I saw sold for something like $325.00. Are the pictured wings "good"? WIthout having them in hand and without my loop ( you have a loop?) I couldn't hazard a guess. If I personally saw these on eBay, with just these 2 pictures I would pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted May 28, 2014 Share #4 Posted May 28, 2014 Just curious but will these pictures help any? They have been lightened up a bit and enlarged. It is very difficult to tell if these wings are "real" due to the smal pictures. These are commonly faked and the large majority you see on eBay are repros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pconrad02 Posted May 28, 2014 Share #5 Posted May 28, 2014 Cliff, Not really, but for the sake of discussion,( and read my tag line ) the hallmark details look weak to me and the coloring on the front looks odd , but again read my tag line . I do like what appears to be a brass pin, but, if you compare them with these:http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/pilot/wallacebishopaafpilot.shtml from Bob's site you can see the difference in the hallmark If these were for sale on Dave Hoovers Site ( http://militaryaviationartifacts.com ) or Ron Berkey's site (http://www.flyingtigerantiques.com) , for example, I stand corrected! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pconrad02 Posted May 28, 2014 Share #6 Posted May 28, 2014 Ok I found the auction, out of Australia I see. Couple of points, since I'm in a chatty mood today, 1) There were a large number REALLY GOOD of re-strikes on the original dies of these and other Aussie wings coming out of Australia a few years ago , just like the Brit wings out of England a few more years back. 2) the seller looks to be established dealer - but I can't determine of he offers a refund policy, but eBay does of course. They are priced at the going rate. The rest is up to the buyer. I would still pass . And yes I have owned a real set , and no I don't have them anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted May 28, 2014 Share #7 Posted May 28, 2014 As Paul stated, this style of wing has been reproduced in numbers. Original Wallace Bishop Pilot wings are unique in that they were made with three individually struck pieces being joined together. The two wings were professionally soldered to the center shield. The reproductions I've seen are produced as one piece badge with fake marks eluding to the pieces being soldered together. An in-hand loop inspection will generally give away the fakes...but you have know what an authentic one looks like first. Paul's absolutely right! Handle as many examples as possible before you start laying down big money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted May 28, 2014 Share #8 Posted May 28, 2014 I'm reading this thread with interest and wanted to post my thought on Wing collecting.I have been picking up wings here and there for the past couple years,and with the exception of one purchase(which happened to be an Aussie made piece,but a different maker,which turned out to be,you guessed it,a repro,which I returned),I've decided to start "small" and work my way up,all the while reading this forums' Wing posts and learning from the "pros" here as I go. I feel that by doing this I will gradually acquire experience,and will be less likely to get "burned" on the "big" stuff.I've been tempted to throw some money on the "top shelf" pieces but so far(with the one exception that I mentioned above)I've limited myself to the lower priced stuff.Using this "formula",I've been able to "amass" a small,modest collection so far,thanks to the wisdom and guidance I've found here on the forum. Just wanted to add,even though it's much less likely,the more common wings have also been known to be sometimes copied as well,but my take is that if I do get "burned" on one of them,at least it will be a "1st degree" burn rather than a "3rd degree" one! My advice to you Rookie is this:ask the seller for some more close up, detailed photos so that you let the experts here eyeball them.If the seller refuses or ignores your request,then pass on the piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted May 28, 2014 Share #9 Posted May 28, 2014 Russ, are they really making repops of the Bishop wings? I've only seen the cast ones, nothing like the ones being made like the Angus and Coote stuff. Someone once told me that they were making the same kind and quality of reproductions that you see with the Angus & Coote, but I'm not sure I believe him. I suspect that people are tossing in all Aussie made wings (I hear the same thing about the K G Luke made wings). I refer to this old (and rather contentious post): http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/47048-kg-luke-hallmark/?hl=+luke%20+reproduction%20+wings My point being that while I have no doubt that the Angus and Coote stuff is being professional (and darn near perfectly) reproduced, I'm not so sure that the Luke and/or Bishop stuff is as well. As for price for an Aussie-made wing, you can generally put a premium on any of the foreign-made wings. I would expect a solid Wallace Bishop wing to sell in the 200-300$ range, more if you buy it from one of the more established dealers, less if you are patient and careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted May 28, 2014 Share #10 Posted May 28, 2014 The above thread was also the first time that Russ posted to the forum! Now he is a moderator. What a guy!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pconrad02 Posted May 29, 2014 Share #11 Posted May 29, 2014 Russ, are they really making repops of the Bishop wings? I've only seen the cast ones, nothing like the ones being made like the Angus and Coote stuff. Someone once told me that they were making the same kind and quality of reproductions that you see with the Angus & Coote, but I'm not sure I believe him. I suspect that people are tossing in all Aussie made wings (I hear the same thing about the K G Luke made wings). I refer to this old (and rather contentious post): http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/47048-kg-luke-hallmark/?hl=+luke%20+reproduction%20+wings My point being that while I have no doubt that the Angus and Coote stuff is being professional (and darn near perfectly) reproduced, I'm not so sure that the Luke and/or Bishop stuff is as well. As for price for an Aussie-made wing, you can generally put a premium on any of the foreign-made wings. I would expect a solid Wallace Bishop wing to sell in the 200-300$ range, more if you buy it from one of the more established dealers, less if you are patient and careful. Crushed that you question my statement Patrick - just crushed .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted May 29, 2014 Share #12 Posted May 29, 2014 So far, I've only seen well made one piece castings of the Wallace - Bishop style of wing. No doubt the laser generated Angus & Coote wings take reproductions to a new level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skypilot6670 Posted May 29, 2014 Share #13 Posted May 29, 2014 This discussion is a great intro for Rookie. The fact that you (Rookie) came to the forum with your questions puts you in the right place to get the best information.We have here the most knowledgable collectors that I have found. Also the exchange of experience and knowledge is is done in a timely (internet) manner. Thanks and welcome. Fraternally Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted May 29, 2014 Author Share #14 Posted May 29, 2014 Thanks all for the advice, I have decided to pass on them and will start collecting with lower cost wings to gain experience before lashing out and getting the high end ones. I look forward to being a part of the forum! Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted May 29, 2014 Share #15 Posted May 29, 2014 Crushed that you question my statement Patrick - just crushed .. Happy to crush on you any time, Paul! I almost never go to militaria shows anymore I don't really like them, and I seem to do much better at the flea markets. BUT...The biggest flaw in my strategy is that sometimes I miss out in seeing the newest "wave" of fake wings. It was only by accident that someone first alerted me to the reproduction Angus & Coote wings. Truth be told, one of the things I try to do if/when I do go to a gun show or militaria show is actually spend time LOOKING for fake or reproduction wings. I find that as important as it is to handle the good stuff, most people miss out by not getting a good dose of fakes as well. Its two sides of the same coin, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pconrad02 Posted May 30, 2014 Share #16 Posted May 30, 2014 I agree, I never get to go to shows much anyone ( pesky family life ) luckily I still have some great contacts. But you can never see too many fakes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted May 30, 2014 Author Share #17 Posted May 30, 2014 Paul, are all the wings on militiaryaviationartifacts.com real? Or does he sell fakes also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pconrad02 Posted May 30, 2014 Share #18 Posted May 30, 2014 ABSOLUTELY NO FAKES - and he has a 100% satisfaction guarantee 7 day inspection. Dave is a great guy to work with, and a friend of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeK Posted May 31, 2014 Share #19 Posted May 31, 2014 Personally, the WB wings at the top of the thread are a nice genuine set. I made an offer to the seller ages ago but they are known down here as an expensive dealer and they did not want to move much. Re Aussie wings, interesting to hear that some think the recent repros are being made here. As far as I know, they are US or UK made. They are not restrikes like many of the UK wings. From what I have see re the recent high quality fake Aussie wings, the A&C Pilot series (Pilot, Senior Pilot, G, L and S wings) have been reproduced, as have the K G Luke Observer series (Observer, Bombardier, Air Gunner, AirCrew, etc), but I don't recall seeing a similar quality WB wing from the same faker. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted May 31, 2014 Author Share #20 Posted May 31, 2014 Excellent. I'm already tempted to buy some! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graybeard Posted June 27, 2014 Share #21 Posted June 27, 2014 Gentlemen, These images may be of interest to the overall discussion on Commonwealth wings. They are currently up for pre-bidding in an Arizona auction (not eBay) commencing on July 13th. If they are fabrications (which is beyond my expertise to determine) then I can see why there is so much confusion about what is real. The workmanship is excellent. The makers include Firmin, Wallace Bishop, A&C and KG Luke, all questioned in earlier posts I believe which is why i'm suspicious. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted June 27, 2014 Share #22 Posted June 27, 2014 Caveat Emptor! It will be interesting to see what other forum members think but I believe you would do well to avoid any of these like the plague. I've no idea what auction house you are referring to but there are a least three others in New York, Florida & North Carolina who specialize in selling militaria and target the uninformed with identical (theater made/made overseas) WW2 USAAF wing badge reproductions. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted June 27, 2014 Share #23 Posted June 27, 2014 Its hard to see, with the photos provided. The WB aircrew wing looks fine to me. I think I can see the "tell" in the Angus Coote pilot wing, which suggests it is good (on the other hand, the patina looks off on that wing). I can't take any position on the Firmin or the Luke wings although I tend to lean towards the Lukes as being good. However, Cliff is100% correct, you should be careful, as these are likely to be VERY expensive--and can be a huge and deep pitfall for the novice collectors. Still, just because the Angus and Coote and Fermin wings are heavily faked, I'm not so sure I would be ready to toss ALL Australian wings into the repro category. At the last gun show I attended, I did a "survey" of Angus and Coote wings. I counted 3 pilot wings, and a service pilot wing. The prices ranged from 180$ to 500$. Of the 4 wings I looked at, 3 were fake and one was good. Ironically enough, the good one was actually the cheapest of the bunch. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted June 27, 2014 Share #24 Posted June 27, 2014 great info guys.. discussion like this is what makes this forum top notch. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted June 27, 2014 Share #25 Posted June 27, 2014 I don't really like any of them, although the Wallace & Bishop Aircrew may have a chance if it were in hand to examine. The Firmin wings and the one Angus & Coote are bad. Check out the Angus & Coote pinned thread under "Important Research Threads". John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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