Big Red One

[WS60]

Friend of mine bought this Big Red One uniform of Vietnam War time

[WS60]

Right shoulder

[WS60]

Left sleeve with patch of 5th Infantry division

[WS60]

Shoulder DUI Delta Company

1st Battalion 11th Infantry

[WS60]

I have question with mentioned medals bar. What are doing three Air medals on Infantry bar? Fantasy or infantry man on helicopter?

[WS60]

His Dog TAg

 

MACK

RICHARD W JR

US 54833832

O POS 344 36 6068

CATHOLIC

[Teamski]

It sure looks like a put-together to me. Depending on whether or not the patches were machine sewn on, it looks like sombody simply added new ribbons and a CIB. Where is his Good Conduct ribbon?

 

-Ski

[brandon_rss18]

I have too agree with Ski, something looks off, and maybe its the lighting but the patch looks strange. Can you take photos of it outside in the sunlight? That would help a lot.

[QED4]

The number after the blood type on the dog tag is Richard's Social Security number and as there is a good chance he is still alive it is probably not a good idea to post it on the internet.

[Laury Allison]

I have question with mentioned medals bar. What are doing three Air medals on Infantry bar? Fantasy or infantry man on helicopter?

 

An infantryman could receive an Air Medal after making a specified number of helicopter assaults. If I remember correctly, it typically took 25 assaults for the award of an Air Medal. Which translates to being dropped into an LZ (Landing Zone) 25 times from a helicopter. It is not/was not uncommon to see an infantryman (and others too) with Air Medals on their ribbon bars.

 

Laury

[WS60]

An infantryman could receive an Air Medal after making a specified number of helicopter assaults. If I remember correctly, it typically took 25 assaults for the award of an Air Medal. Which translates to being dropped into an LZ (Landing Zone) 25 times from a helicopter. It is not/was not uncommon to see an infantryman (and others too) with Air Medals on their ribbon bars.

 

Laury

 

 

Thanks Laury

[ItemCo16527]

It sure looks like a put-together to me. Depending on whether or not the patches were machine sewn on, it looks like sombody simply added new ribbons and a CIB. Where is his Good Conduct ribbon?

 

-Ski

He wouldn't necessarily have one. I've seen pictures of many soldiers who did their tour in Vietnam and didn't receive one. This was probably because they were draftees and served 2 years on active duty as opposed to 3 years for volunteers. I recall seeing a photo of a Sergeant with just the National Defense, Vietnam Service, and RVN Campaign ribbons along with a CIB once.

 

I think the awarding of the GCM after one year of service in a war zone (providing it was the soldier's first award) was done away with after WWII. Although, I think the regulations have changed again, so I'd have to look it up.

[Teamski]

He wouldn't necessarily have one. I've seen pictures of many soldiers who did their tour in Vietnam and didn't receive one. This was probably because they were draftees and served 2 years on active duty as opposed to 3 years for volunteers. I recall seeing a photo of a Sergeant with just the National Defense, Vietnam Service, and RVN Campaign ribbons along with a CIB once.

 

I think the awarding of the GCM after one year of service in a war zone (providing it was the soldier's first award) was done away with after WWII. Although, I think the regulations have changed again, so I'd have to look it up.

 

How many E-5's had less than 3 years in?? That said, I'm sure a lot of guys never updated their racks...

 

-Ski

[Salvage Sailor]

How many E-5's had less than 3 years in?? That said, I'm sure a lot of guys never updated their racks...

 

-Ski

 

Plenty - Shake 'n Bakes (or 'push-buttons' in USN parlance)

[Laury Allison]

Shake n' Bakes for anyone who doesn't know were graduates of the NCO Candidate (NCOC) courses during the Vietnam-era. Since there was a high demand for Sergeants and NCOs, sharp soldiers were picked to attend the courses. It was similar to Officer Candidate School (OCS), except for enlisted personnel. Upon graduation, they were made Sergeant (E-5). Rank could be attained quickly even if a person didn't attend NCOC during this period. I knew a guy who made E-6 during his first 3 year enlistment without going to NCOC and turned down E-7 to reenlist. He later came into the Air Force, and yes I saw his DD-214 from the Army, so I know it was true. There was a lot of turn-over during this time, so stripes could come fast.

 

As for a Good Conduct Medal, it normally took 3 years to earn one. If a person was wounded, they could get one before the 3 year mark. I did a shadow box for a friend of mine who was a draftee and he DID receive one. It was on his 214 and he only did 2 years in the Army. He was wounded and received 2 Purple Hearts. I believe that stipulation is still in the regulations and only applies to the first award of the GCM.

 

Since the ribbon rack on this uniform doesn't show a Purple Heart, this person wouldn't have received a Good Conduct Medal until completing the 3-year mark. A lot of the draftees extended their tours in Vietnam for three months so they could get a "drop" on their enlistment when they returned to the CONUS. So those guys wouldn't have gotten a GCM unless they were wounded. They were discharged at port upon returning and probably wouldn't have cared about another medal anyway.

 

Awards and decorations have a lot of exceptions to the rule.

 

Hope this helps to clear things up some....

 

Laury

[Teamski]

Yeah, but 4 Air Medal awards with a CIB?? That doesn't add up. I would expect an aircrew badge as a flying crewchief/gunner on a Huey or something, but not an infantryman....

 

-Ski

[atb]

Sometimes I think we try to read too much into these uniforms and see things that are not there. From the current Army Regulations on the Army Good Conduct Medal-

 

4-5. Qualifying periods of service

Any one of the following periods of continuous enlisted active Federal military service qualifies for award of the

AGCM or of a AGCM Clasp (see para 4–9) in conjunction with the criteria in para 4–6:

a. Each 3 years completed on or after 27 August 1940.

b. For first award only, 1 year served entirely during the period 7 December 1941 to 2 March 1946.

c. For first award only, upon termination of service on or after 27 June 1950, of less than 3 years but more than 1

year.

d. For first award only, upon termination of service, on or after 27 June 1950, of less than 1 year when final

separation was by reason of physical disability incurred in line of duty.

e. For first award only, for those individuals who died before completing 1 year of active Federal military service if

the death occurred in the line of duty. Subparagraph c above also applies to posthumous awards of the AGCM.

 

But, I will have to find older regs to see if this is different than in the Vietnam Era. The uniform looks fine to me (based on the bad images). Infantrymen were routinely awarded Air Medals for air assaults or flights. I made E5 in 1971 after less than 24 months service. As was already stated, some made it much earlier via "shake-and-bake" NCO schools.

[seanmc1114]

I agree that the Air Medal with numeral 3 is odd on this uniform if the owner was a combat infantryman. One award would be fairly common. I have a copy of the USARV regulations on awards and decorations and originally they required the recipient of an Air Medal based on a certain number of combat assaults or missions to be on flight status to qualify and excluded those who only flew on a helicopter as a passenger to get from point, for example an infantryman who participated in combat assaults. I can't remember the exact terminology used, but basically there was a formula involved for weighing combat assaults and non-assault flights differently, so that someone qualified with 25 combat assaults or 50 non-assault flights or any combination of the two or three categories. Later on, I believe in 1967 or 1968, the regulations were changed to allow passengers to qualify under the same terms so that infantrymen participating in combat assaults became eligible for the Air Medal after a certain number of missions. I think some units, such as the 1st Cav and 101st Airborne, were more liberal with the awarding of the Air Medal to combat infantrymen than other units under these criteria. Because technically it required keeping a special log showing each flight and its duration. The paperwork probably wasn't a very high priority in most line units.

 

So even though the award of the Air Medal to an infantryman was fairly common, at least in certain units, I would be a little suspect of a fourth award for two reasons. First, that number of awards represents over 100 combat assaults which I guess was possible but not very likely, at least in one tour. Second, I have a number of orders awarding the Air Medal to men of the 82nd Airborne in Vietnam in 1968 and 1969. Some of the helicopter crews received a separate award about every month or six weeks, but when they did, the orders always referred to some number of oak leaf clusters for additional awards, not the numeral as shown on this ribbon. I have never been clear on when numerals replaced oak leaf clusters in the Army for awards of the Air Medal based on a certain number of missions.

 

As far as the award of the Good Conduct Medal for less than three years service, I have seen orders awarding the medal to soldiers with the qualifying dates of service beginning with the date of entry into service and the end date being on or about a certain date the soldier was expected to be discharged. I guess that way the soldiers' actual unit could make sure the paperwork was processed properly so he wouldn't have to rely on it being doen at the separation center where it would most likely slip through the cracks.

 

Finally, concerning Shake N' Bake NCO's, my father joined the Army in June, 1967 and went through the 9th class of the infantry NCO Candidate Course at Ft. Benning. This was right after the program was started in the fall of 1967 and at that point I believe one class was graduating each week. He was promoted to Sergeant (E-5) after graduation and spent about 8 weeks of on the job training in an AIT unit before going to Vietnam. At the completion of the NCO course, the instructors had the option of making the honor graduates Staff Sergeants (E-6). Even though my father was an honor graduate, he said his instructors decided that no one should make SSG with only a few months in the army. He was initially assigned as a squad leader but because the unit was so short handed, within a few weeks he was made platoon sergeant, a position that normally took years to attain in the peacetime army. Ironically, he was later forced to relinquish the position because a new Shake N' Bake graduate was transferred to the unit with less time in the army than my father but because he had been promoted to SSG on graduation, he outranked my father.

[Teamski]

Wow, I learned a lot here on quick burning E-5's. The best you can do for E-5 in the USAF is 4 years tops (eligible in 3 but you won't sew on for a year).

 

-Ski

[VALERY]

Bonsoir,

I found your Sgt in the VN roster:

Name: MACK RICHARD W JR

Branch: ARMY

Rate: E05

Rank: SERGEANT

MOS: 11B

MOS Title: Infantryman

Entered:

Discharged:

Service Number:

State: ILLINOIS

Race: CAUCASIAN

Better than nothing

Cheers

Valery

[WS60]

How I can find military record on this man?

 

MACK

RICHARD W JR

US 54833832

O POS 344 36 6068

CATHOLIC

[WS60]

Thanks Valery, I didn't see your message

[hawkdriver]

During war, infantry guys are sometimes attached to aviation units to act as fill in door gunners when crewmember shortages are present. It is possible that this guy was detailed as a door gunner for a period of time to allow his receiving the air medal. Usually one air medal for every 25 combat missions, so 75 combat flights and he would have the numeral three, that could be as quick as one month.

In Iraq, we had door gunners that we took from our HHC, or Echo maintenance company to work as door gunners as we are only staffed at one crewchief per aircraft. We had a couple dozen guys that never received wings, but have air medals.

[Laury Allison]

Wow, I learned a lot here on quick burning E-5's. The best you can do for E-5 in the USAF is 4 years tops (eligible in 3 but you won't sew on for a year).

 

-Ski

 

 

Ski,

 

I sewed SSgt on in the Air Force at 3 years 10 months. I entered active duty on 18 June 1982 and put SSgt on my sleeve on 1 May 1986. It can and could be done under 4 years, but was tough to do.

 

Laury

[101combatvet]

Air Medal

 

There are many reason why he could have earned several Air Medals.

 

"Examples of personnel whose combat duties require them to fly include those in the attack elements of units involved in air-land assaults against an armed enemy and those directly involved in airborne command and control of combat operations. Involvement in such activities, normally at the brigade/group level and below, serves only to establish eligibility for award of the Air Medal; the degree of heroism, meritorious achievement or exemplary service determines who should receive the award."