pre-ww1 breeches- when did the laces move

[jgawne]

On WW1 breeches the laces are on the side of the legs, however at some point before they were at the very front.

 

Does anyone know when they were moved, or a spec number?

 

This seems to elude me for some reason.

 

[GIl Sanow]

I think around 1912 -- the same tie they dropped the adjustment strap on the back. I suspect WQW1 Nerd can tell us specificly.

 

G

[RustyCanteen]

WWINerd and I were researching this last year, but I just got so busy with other projects that it never collated. Completely my fault and I will readily admit it. We had planned a large reference thread covering Pre-WWI though WWI and maybe into the early postwar years.

 

WWINerd, if you are still interested drop me a message. I think I already sent you what I had found.

 

RC

[Mitter2k1]

This will be interesting. I'm looking forward to what you guys come up with.

 

Mike

[world war I nerd]

I don't have any reference in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that the laces on the front of the legs were moved to the sides on the 1911 Service Breeches. However,the adjustment belt that was present at the back of the waist on all early pattern service breeches continued to be used. The adjustment belt at the back was eliminated on the 1917 Service Breeches to simplify fabrication and reduce their cost. Having said that, I have seen examples of the 1917 pattern Service Breeches with the adjustment belt at the rear waist. This however, is the exception rather than the rule, as any leftover adjustment belts would have been incorporated on the new 1917 breeches until the pre-made belts were used up.

 

RC is absolutely right. He and I started doing research for a planned post on U.S. Army trousers and breeches 1902 to 1919. RC and I have accumulated quite a bit of information and I even started writing it. But as RC stated above, I think that we were both overtaken by events and haven't gotten back to that particular project. For my part, I still have huge holes in the information that need to be filled, particularly in regard to the trousers and breeches of all types that worn between 1902 and 1907, i.e. dress, service, oilskin, fatigue, bleached cotton duck (white) and navy blue Mackinaw Trousers. If any forum member would like to contribute either solid information ... descriptions of ... or actual examples of any of the above mentioned breeches or trousers that they may have their collections please contact either RC or myself.

 

Thanks

[jgawne]

thanks.

 

Now I know why few people do any research. why bother when someone will just offer it all up for you!

[Dr_rambow]

I'll take a look at what I have as I am interested in this as well.

[world war I nerd]

Did someone mention specification numbers? A few years ago I was supplied with a rather long list of U.S. Army specification numbers. Unfortunately, I’ve since learned that the list was incomplete on certain garments. Therefore, I cannot guarantee that the following list of specification numbers for woolen and cotton service breeches is all inclusive. In fact, I suspect that it is not. Regardless, it does give us some idea as to the number of variations a collector may encounter. Sadly, the list contained no descriptive information.

 

To get the ball rolling, if anybody interested in this subject who:

1. Has a description to go with any of the specification numbers listed below
2. Owns an example of one or more of the service breeches listed below
3. Owns a pair of service breeches with a specification number that is not listed below

Would kindly post either:

1. A description along with the source from which the description came
2. A photo or description of any breeches in your possession, whose contract tag bears any of the specification numbers listed below
3. A photo or description of any breeches in your possession, whose contract tag bears a specification number that, is not on the list.

We should also bear in mind that during any specification change, there will be an overlapping period when the breeches manufactured will have traits from both the older and newer specification numbers. This was the result of the garment manufacturer’s using up all leftover parts that may have been in stock from the former specification number until they have all been used. So don’t be surprised when anomalies and variations appear that do not quite conform to the exact specifications called out by the Quartermaster Department/Corps.

 

U.S. Army Olive Drab Woolen Breeches

 

Specification No. 610, adopted on April 14, 1903

Specification No. 611, adopted on April 14, 1903

Specification No. 698, adopted on September 26, 1904

Specification No. 878, adopted on June 24, 1907

Specification No. 1050, adopted on November 3, 1909

Specification No. 1124, adopted on August 15, 1911

Specification No. 1161, adopted on July 26, 1912

Specification No. 1263, adopted on August 6, 1917

Specification No. 1286, adopted on December ?? 1917

Specification No. 415-5-3-1286, adopted on June 25, 1919

 

Olive Drab Cotton Service Breeches

 

Specification No. 1058, adopted on March 17, 1910

Specification No. 1127, adopted on August 15, 1911

Specification No. 1162, adopted on July 26, 1912

Specification No. 1264, adopted on August 6, 1917

Specification No. 415-3-1264, adopted on July 17, 1919

 

[world war I nerd]

Common Traits of Service Breeches Manufactured Between 1902 and 1910

• Generally speaking, early pattern woolen service breeches were fabricated from a smoother and browner shade of olive drab wool and the cotton service breeches were fabricated from a tanner shade of khaki cotton.
• Early pattern enlisted men’s breeches were cut wider (looser) through the seat and hips.
• Early pattern service breeches featured a two piece adjustment strap at the rear waist that was fastened by a white metal or bronze buckle.
• The front fly of very early pattern service breeches were held closed by five regulation metal, ‘tin plate’ style buttons that were painted brown. Somewhere between 1902 and 1907, the front fly of early pattern service breeches were held closed by either four or five regulation size, zinc buttons bearing the inscription “U.S. Army”. The fifth button was required on waist sizes of 36 inches and above). The top of the fly was secured by a large, flat, white metal hook and eye, not a button.
• Early pattern service breeches had two ‘side seam’ front pockets, one fob pocket high on the right front hip, and no rear pockets.
• Early pattern service breeches had six suspender buttons that were identical to the front fly buttons, sewn onto the inside of the waistband; two in the rear and four in the front, two on either side of the fly. On very early pattern service breeches, the suspender buttons may have been sewn onto the outside, not the inside of the waistband.
• In addition to the suspender buttons, all early pattern service breeches had six belt loops; two in the front, one on either side of the fly, one on each side of the waist, and two at the rear. Very early pattern service breeches may not have had any belt loops.
• The leg opening on early pattern service breeches were located on the front of the leg, not at the side.

[world war I nerd]

Common Traits of the 1911 Service Breeches

• Generally speaking, 1911 pattern woolen service breeches were fabricated from a smoother and browner shade of olive drab wool and the cotton service breeches were fabricated from olive drab cotton.
• 1911 pattern service breeches appeared less baggy through the seat and hips when worn.
• 1911 pattern service breeches featured a two piece adjustment strap at the rear waist that was fastened by a white metal or bronze buckle.
• The front fly of 1911 pattern service breeches were held closed by either four or five regulation size, zinc buttons bearing the inscription “U.S. Army”. The fifth button was required on waist sizes of 36 inches and above. The top of the fly was secured by a large, flat, white metal hook and eye, not a button.
• 1911 pattern service breeches had two ‘side seam’ front pockets, one fob pocket high on the right front hip, and no rear pockets.
• 1911 pattern service breeches had six suspender buttons that were identical to the front fly buttons, sewn onto the inside of the waistband; two in the rear and four in the front, two on either side of the fly.
• In addition to the suspender buttons, all 1911 pattern service breeches had six belt loops; two in the front, one on either side of the fly, one on each side of the waist, and two at the rear.
• The leg opening on the 1911 pattern service breeches were moved to the side of the legs.

[world war I nerd]

Common Traits of the 1917 Service Breeches

• Generally speaking, 1917 pattern woolen service breeches were fabricated from a coarser and darker shade of olive drab wool. However as the war progressed, Quartermaster Corps color standards were relaxed and the service breeches began to show up in a wide range of hues and colors. The 1917 pattern cotton service breeches were fabricated from a tan shade of khaki cotton. You might find this interesting … the AEF salvage service dyed over 50,000 discarded service breeches and service coats a bright emerald green. These special emerald green uniforms were issued to German prisoners instead of the intended striped prison suits.
• The cut of the1917 pattern service breeches was similar to that of the 1911 service breeches. Therefore, they also appeared less baggy through the seat and hips when worn.
• The two piece adjustment strap at the rear waist was eliminated from the 1917 pattern service breeches.
• The large, flat, white metal hook and eye securing the top of the front fly was replaced by one large size zinc button bearing the inscription “U.S. Army” on the 1917 pattern service breeches.
• Two rear pockets were added to the 1917 pattern service breeches.
• The six suspender buttons were omitted from the 1917 pattern service breeches, but the six belt loops were retained.
• The leg opening on the 1917 pattern service breeches remained on the side of the legs.
• The inside of the thighs on the 1917 pattern service breeches were reinforced or “padded” with a second layer of woolen fabric.

 

 

 

[RustyCanteen]

Great post WWINerd!

 

Hopefully we can gather more information if members will kindly post what they have.

 

RC

[solcarlus]

Bonjour.

 

Merci WWINerd

[Mitter2k1]

Did someone mention specification numbers? A few years ago I was supplied with a rather long list of U.S. Army specification numbers. Unfortunately, I’ve since learned that the list was incomplete on certain garments. Therefore, I cannot guarantee that the following list of specification numbers for woolen and cotton service breeches is all inclusive. In fact, I suspect that it is not. Regardless, it does give us some idea as to the number of variations a collector may encounter. Sadly, the list contained no descriptive information.

 

To get the ball rolling, if anybody interested in this subject who:

1. Has a description to go with any of the specification numbers listed below
2. Owns an example of one or more of the service breeches listed below
3. Owns a pair of service breeches with a specification number that is not listed below

Would kindly post either:

1. A description along with the source from which the description came
2. A photo or description of any breeches in your possession, whose contract tag bears any of the specification numbers listed below
3. A photo or description of any breeches in your possession, whose contract tag bears a specification number that, is not on the list.

We should also bear in mind that during any specification change, there will be an overlapping period when the breeches manufactured will have traits from both the older and newer specification numbers. This was the result of the garment manufacturer’s using up all leftover parts that may have been in stock from the former specification number until they have all been used. So don’t be surprised when anomalies and variations appear that do not quite conform to the exact specifications called out by the Quartermaster Department/Corps.

 

U.S. Army Olive Drab Woolen Breeches

 

Specification No. 610, adopted on April 14, 1903

Specification No. 611, adopted on April 14, 1903

Specification No. 698, adopted on September 26, 1904

Specification No. 878, adopted on June 24, 1907

Specification No. 1050, adopted on November 3, 1909

Specification No. 1124, adopted on August 15, 1911

Specification No. 1161, adopted on July 26, 1912

Specification No. 1263, adopted on August 6, 1917

Specification No. 1286, adopted on December ?? 1917

Specification No. 415-5-3-1286, adopted on June 25, 1919

 

Olive Drab Cotton Service Breeches

 

Specification No. 1058, adopted on March 17, 1910

Specification No. 1127, adopted on August 15, 1911

Specification No. 1162, adopted on July 26, 1912

Specification No. 1264, adopted on August 6, 1917

Specification No. 415-3-1264, adopted on July 17, 1919

 

WWI Nerd, I was going back over some old threads and I was rereading this one when I realized I have a pair of the Spec. No. 1264 Cotton Service Breeches and a pair of Spec. No. 1286 wool breeches. I also have a pair of earlier wool breeches that may be Spec. No. 1161. The tag is present and slightly legible. I am going to see if I can find someone that has some sort of night vision device to see if I can make out what it actually says if that is possible. These breeches came with a transitional wool uniform dated around 1912 and they are both named to the same guy. I will take some semi-professional looking photos of the cotton 1264 and some photos of the earlier wool breeches and post them shortly.

 

Mike

[Mitter2k1]

Here is my pair of Spec. No. 1264--Amended Cotton Service Breeches. I will layout everything that I see as possibly being a notable feature and hope that it is what you are looking for. If there is anything else that you would like to see, let me know and I will further elaborate as best I can. These are a green color but the lighting in my house is poor and it doesn't show very well in the photos.

 

Manufactured by

J. Baker and Sons, Inc.

Evansville, IN

Contract Nov. 15, 1917

Spec. 1264--Amended

Philadelphia Depot, Q.M.C.

 

Olive color, Size 22 or 36x29, 5 Zinc Button (1 Lg., 4 Sm.) Fly Closure, Large button marked U.S. Army, the 4 small buttons marked U.S.A., 6 Belt Loops, 10 Pairs of Eyelets for lacing the legs, Lacing is on the outside of the leg, Double Bar stitched reinforcement above the lace opening, 2 Front Pockets, 1 "watch?" pocket, 2 rear pockets, Inner Thigh/Knee reinforcement with 6 chevron shaped stitches.

 

 

 

[Mitter2k1]

Spec. 1264 cotton breeches continued.

 

 

 

[Mitter2k1]

Last 2 of the 1264

 

 

 

Thanks,

Mike

[Mitter2k1]

Here is some basic information about my pair of earlier pair of wool breeches.

 

Hook closure with 4 "plastic" buttons for the fly. The hook assembly is a dead match for the one used for the collar on WWI overcoats.

It has 2 front and 1 "watch" pocket, No rear pockets.

There are 6 "plastic" buttons inside the waist for suspenders, one in the front on each side and 2 in the rear per side.

6 belt loops, No Martingale

Lacing is done in the front of the leg via 14 pairs of eyelets. The area that the lacing is done is in a more ornate style. I will attach a pic to better show what I mean.

 

Mike

 

[Mitter2k1]

I still need to photograph my pair of Spec. 1286 wool breeches. I looked all over to find them and only then realized they were on my mannequin display.

 

Mike

[world war I nerd]

Mike,

 

Thanks for getting the ball rolling in respect to matching actual examples of U.S. Army breeches to their respective specification number. Let's hope that other members follow in your footsteps.

 

If we can get a few more, I can resurrect the partially finished post that RC and I began on Army trousers and breeches 1902 to 1919.

 

Thanks again.

[Mitter2k1]

Thanks WWI Nerd, I will contribute what I can. If there is anything you guys would like to know or see, let me know specifically and I will check them out.

 

Here is my pair of Spec. No. 1286 wool breeches. I will start with the tag info and then follow up with the specific details.

 

Manufactured by Krieger, Frankel Co., Inc.

62 West 14th Street, New York

Contract March 15, 1918

Contract No. 1274-N Spec. No. 1286

New York Depot Q.M.C.

 

Mustard Colored

5 zinc button fly closure- 1 Lg. Marked US Army, 4 Sm. Marked U.S.A.

5 Pockets- 2 Front, 2 Rear, 1 Watch

6 belt loops- only one is made of a matching material.

Lacing is done on the outside of the leg.

The right leg has 9 pair of eyelets for lacing, the left has 8. It must be a manufacturer defect as the bottom 2 eyelets on the right leg are very close to the cotton tape reinforcement.

The lacing is reinforced at the top with 1 bar stitch.

The inside of the legs have the wool reinforcement.

 

Thanks

Mike

 

[WPG]

I am looking for information on Mounted Service breeches in this period. I know several patterns had full seat reinforcements on mounted breeches early on. The 1917 pattern had only knee pads, but these were on all breeches and there was no mounted pattern. I have never been able to find a 1912 pattern that had any kind of reinforcements. I've looked through all the photos of cavalry in the Punitive Expedition that I can find, and I can not make out any reinforcement on any of them.

 

Does anyone have any photos or information to determine if/when mounted pattern breeches were discontinued? Any photos/info to show that any were made between 1912 and 1917 with reinforcements?

 

Just to give you an idea how complicated this is, I just picked up a ratty old pair of Pattern 1161 (1912) but contract date of Apr 1917 - probably the last contract for this pattern. They have knee pads on them, but it looks like they were added after the breeches were made - the stitching doesn't match the rest of the breeches. Further complicating things, the knee patches have obviously been altered, so maybe they were removed, cut down and then sewn on by the soldier who wore them. Also, they came with a tunic that had an infantry collar disc, suggesting that the owner was not mounted.

[world war I nerd]

Mounted Service Breeches were discontinued or abolished as an article of equipment when the 1917 pattern Service Dress (Service Coat & Service Breeches) was adopted by the Army in August of 1917.

 

During the transition period from the 1912 pattern to the 1917 pattern service breeches, numerous pairs of hybrid breeches were fabricated that had traits belonging to both patterns. For example 1917 service breeches with two rear pockets show up with the rear half-belt or 'martingale' found on the earlier pattern breeches that had been discontinued in order to cut costs and conserve wool. The practice of combining elements of both specifications allowed the manufacturers to use up all pre-cut "parts" and obsolete hardware until their stocks were exhausted so that nothing was wasted. Hence, the occasional odd combination of the old and new.

 

1907 and 1912 pattern mounted service breeches (both cotton & woolen) were identical to their dismounted counterpart except for a second layer of matching cloth that covered the seat and inner thighs.

 

The only images I could dig up are as follows:

 

Front and back of a pair or 1907 Woolen Mounted Service Breeches in which the seams showing the reinforced seat and thighs are clearly visible.

[world war I nerd]

Front and back view of a pair of 1907 Woolen Dismounted Service Breeches which do not have a reinforced seat and thighs.

[world war I nerd]

Rear view of what I'm pretty sure are a pair of 1912 Woolen Mounted Service Breeches. Note the reinforced seat and thighs. The 1907 pattern service breeches were cut much looser in the seat and thighs. This gave them a much more 'baggy' appearance.