Is History Starting to Get Lost in Collecting?"

[cutiger83]

Sometimes, I feel that collectors tend to sensationalize items in their collection. They see a cool helmet with battle damage, a KIA purple heart as an awesome find, etc. They lose the fact that every person (civilian or veteran) who dies during war means the loss of not only one life but future generations. If my grandfather or father had died during their war, I would not be here today. The people who survive are left with nightmares and guilt for having survived.

I don’t think collectors need to feel bad for wanting to collect military items. However, I do feel that they should focus more on the history and less on the value or “coolness” of an item. The history is being lost in the hunt to outdo fellow collectors with the awesomeness of their collections or finding the “holy grail” in militaria or finding something for cheap and selling for a huge profit.

The following is an excerpt from a true story about a church having a Memorial Day celebration with exhibits of the WWII vets:

We shared the purpose of our visit and he said he’d gotten the word that this celebration was coming. He brought a box to the living room and handed us an official looking photo of a young man in uniform. He still had the full head of wavy hair in the picture only now it was white instead of black. He handed over a history book where he’d underlined information about several important battles and noted that’d he’d been there. Then he got quiet for a moment. Handing over a small square photo, he said, “Do you really want to know what war is like? If you don’t then don’t look at this.” My elder companion took the picture and held it up. In it was an American soldier, young, so very young, but looking so very old with exhaustion. Behind the young man, at least two feet taller and six feet wider than the soldier, was a mound of human bones. It was one of the most haunting images I’ve ever seen. “That,” said Mr. McCaskill slowly, “is what war is really like and it is nothing to celebrate.”

...Kat

 

 

 

[Brig]

I think this forum is a sterling example of how history is NOT being lost in collecting. Countless members spend just as much, if not more, researching an item they purchased, developing write-ups to post here and share with the world. In depth fully detailed accounts of a man's life that would be lost to history if some collector had not taken the time and money to research it. Even then, he could have chose to keep that info to himself and reveal it to up a sale price, but instead he posts it for the world to find via Google.

 

Many other collectors who don't necessary share the info still research it all, but don't post it out of fear of vultures looking to accuse them of being thieves and scoundrels for their actions. And still more collectors take their time and money (in the form of ancestry accounts, driving to nearby records centers, etc) researching the history for other collectors out there.

 

There will always be people who get lost in the hype or the shine and put the history to the wayside, in everything historical that is out there, much as the media will make it's fame and fortune by capitalizing on the worst moments in peoples lives rather than feel good stories. But if it wasn't for collecting, far more of these men's stories would fall to the wayside and go unknown and forgotten. If anything, collectors are one of the primary reasons these men's actions and stories are remembered, recorded, and repeated. As for 'coolness', people need to find something 'cool' and interesting/appealing to their interests to collect it, otherwise it would just be 'stuff' to them and not as cherished and honored

 

A lot of members here have seen war, and are themselves collectors. And even more are peacetime veterans. A very common trend in the US militaria hobby. They, of all people, know the importance of remembering and sharing the stories of our fallen

[Kman1752]

"However, I do feel that they should focus more on the history and less on the value or “coolness” of an item."

 

Well said and I totally agree. Finding stuff is exciting, but researching it is the best part for me. If there is no history an item isn't very interesting. Unfortunately many people today could care less about the history and focus all of their energy on making a profit. It's up to us to teach our children and non collector's about the history of an item. If not history will become just that.

[38Driver]

Seems to me each person asks the same question when they find something they want for thier collection.

 

"What's it worth?"

 

How each of us answers that question becomes the issue. There are many who base the worth on the history involved and in the privilege and responsibility of preserving and sharing that history.

 

And of course there are many who just want to know if they've scored big in monetary value.

 

Look at all the shows out now with pickers, etc. all focus on the dollar value. Since the almighty dollar is king, I think it sends a horrible message to the masses about what is most important.

 

That being said I'm comforted in knowing there are a lot of history first folks around here doing thier best to stem the tide.

 

And yes I'm a history guy first and foremost.

[oldabewla]

I love the history of a item too and don't collect it for the money and like to get a deal on items but what will kill collecting more than anything is the crazy prices some people want or are willing to pay for a item and driving out the new young collectors comming in that are replacing the ones that are no longer here with us.

 

Next time you take a look at the driver of any Corvette on the road you most likely won't see young guys driving it as years before you might have the young generation can't can't afford to buy or pay the insurance for it thus driving them out them of the market.

 

I have a very good paying job but can't force myself to pay the asking prices of these items, it's not because I'm cheap skate but I'm in it for the history of the item and not for the money as said.

 

Craig

[John Conway]

This is a delicate subject from many standpoints and one I have often reflected on in over 50 years of collecting. I've seen a lot of changes in the field but nothing more dramatic then the rise of the internet. With the availability the internet has provided the hobby has leapt forward in both good and bad ways.. I see truly historic clothing negated because of it's size which makes me question where in the hell would anyone wear it anyway? I've seen people gloat about buying things from the unknowing, often the vets themselves or family members after their passing, then selling it for a huge profit. I've seen collectors of elite or unique units conduct themselves in ways so despicable that it might inspire the people who earned what they collect to "harm" them if they knew how their legacy was being handled. I've seen artifacts from men who made enormous sacrifices in the name of freedom treated as entertainment by the naïve or uncaring. There are also those who consider research as, first and most, the key to getting more money out of what they have when the time comes to sell it and they are perfectly willing to exploit those who can provide it. There are veterans out there who consider "collector" a four letter word because of these mind sets. As in all endeavors human there is no governing source beyond that which can be defined as illegal. I'd like to think the majority of us have our hearts in the right place and do what we do for honorable reasons. As Kman1752 has said - it's very important to impart the more subtle aspects of this endeavor to those following in our footsteps. Some of the best things in my life / collection have come to me as gifts - both in thoughts, action and object - not found on Ebay and sold to the highest bidder.

[m1ashooter]

For me the history is why I collect. When I look up at the M1 helmets over my desk I always wish they could talk. My children and their friends only exposure to this type of history is because their dad is a collector.

[Backtheattack]

I agree with M1ashooter, the main theme of my collection is a Veteran I met years ago, he gave me his equipment and uniforms, and I searched for the background of his way in Europe, After Action Reports, Newspapers, Unit documents, reports, maps and more. If anyone ask me why collecting american items in this way I will tell him his story, ending the war with fighting Hitler and give freedom back to countries in Europe. German medias often ignore this fact when they talk about commenmorate days in Belgium, Netherlands or France. Often they publish articles about "military freaks", brain-ill militarists and more. But writing more about this german problem will run out of this theme so I will stop here.

[LtRGFRANK]

My collecting started when I inherited My fathers Ike Jacket. My son thought we should complete it with pants etc. It went from there to include everything an ETO enlisted would have been issued, touched, used etc. Its all about preserving History of the items

[ssggates]

Personally, I'm a history nut before I am a collector. The historical objects and artifacts provide a segue into more research and learning. The uniforms, medals and helmets bring a human element to history that you don't get from a book. They allow me to connect personally and more importantly I feel as if I doing something for the greater good when I preserve these items and spend the time to carefully research and tell stories that would otherwise be forgotten.

[skautdog]

I can only speak for myself. H/E, I suspect many other on this board have very similar feelings.

 

I find more "value" in a simple patch or piece of field gear (TA-50) I was issued or someone from another era had as I do in a $?,???.?? firearm or other item. For me, each time I obtain a new item, my first thoughts revolve around , "I wonder who all used this piece of equipment, where has this item been, what stories could it tell me. etc.,...?"

 

I believe I have an obligation to preserve each item, as best I am able, so my descendants, or others, can find the same pleasure, imagination and appreciation in the item I do. I enjoy documenting the item, cataloging and photographing the items more than "obtaining" them. I find great enjoyment sometimes just getting a special firearm, bayonet or knife out of the safe and just pondering how that item affected the lives of all those who used it. Having served in the 1st CAV in VN, it doesn't take much imagination for me to get out an Indian Wars era belt and buckle and imagine a trooper riding for days in the wilderness just doing what soldiers do. But, what exactly did that trooper and that belt/buckle see and endure?

 

Certainly there are those who simply see militaria as a way to make money. Ok, that's their deal. Let's be honest. If it weren't for those willing to sell/trade items those items would not be available to others who are interested in the items' history. Many of us approach militaria from a different perspective than simply making money.

 

Ken

[skautdog]

Kat,

 

Thanks for starting this thread. Should give us all pause.

 

Ken

[willysmb44]

I agree, but feel I must counter to a degree with the idea that if we really focused on the pain, suffering, loss and horror these vets went through, you'd go insane at how unworthy you probably would fell for even being in the same room with the stuff, let alone owning any of it.

A buddy of mine who collected German stuff got really wrapped up in the connotations of what he owned. He even had some concentration camp stuff. It darned near drove him nuts for a while and he wound up getting rid of it all for his sanity's sake.

[Wharfmaster]

Named - identified militaria = History. Unnamed - unidentified militaria = War Surplus.

 

 

W

[juvatwad]

My personal take (probably won't be popular): I, too, am really into military history, I served, then did the reserve thing for a bit after that. Now, I satisfy my interest by reading a lot. But to be frank, the helmets, uniforms, etc. in my collection are not valuable historical artifacts. They can't "talk", and never will. They were simply items worn by some guy who actually was a participant in the history that interests me. What HE did, what his UNIT did, etc.: THAT'S the history.

 

I collect the stuff because it looks cool, and I was very interested in the development of flight gear through the wars, but it's the guy who actually used the stuff that matters, not the stuff itself.

 

Ian

[Manchu Warrior]

As far as value versus history I would like to share an experience that I had. I had already told this story on the forum but I cannot seem to find it. With that said I will tell a shorter version.

 

Back a few years ago when I was stationed in Korea I went to my units supply room for some long forgotten reason. They where cleaning the place up and against the wall sat a box full of MP DMZ brassards. There must have been sixty or seventy of them in the box. They dated to the 1960's or early 70's and I asked the supply Sargent if I could have one and said that I could. I took one and went on with my business. Latter that night I went back down to the supply room and the box was gone. I asked the private that was working in the room what had happened to the box. He informed me that it had been thrown in the trash outback. I was horrified.

 

I was horrified because it wasn't just your everyday dumpster. What it was was a huge trash pit with a week or so worth of an Infantry units trash. God only knows what was in there. With that said I went back to my room and put on a MOPP suit and went back and jumped in. And after much ridicule and laughter by a bunch drunker soldiers on a Friday night I found what I was looking for. By this time you may be wondering what this has to do with the subject matter at hand but I promise that I will get to the point.

 

I mailed the brassards home and after I got out of the Army I realized that even a packrat, borderline hoarder, such as myself did not need seventy duplicates of the same brassard. So, I picked out a few cleans ones for myself and I sold a few. I even got close to $140 for one on ebay that still somewhat baffles me. But usually they would sell in the $20 to $40 range. Don't get me wrong because I was more than happy to make good money off of something that I saved from the trash. However, that is not the end of the story.

 

After I got home I started going to a country auction on a regular basis. At the auction I befriended an older gentlemen. He shared with me that he had been an MP in Korea many moons ago. I informed him that I was also stationed in Korea and I asked him if he spent time on the DMZ as an MP. He informed me that in fact had. I also asked if he happened to have worn the MP DMZ brassard with the Hangul letters, he once again informed that he had. The conversation ended without me telling what I had at home.

 

When I got home I picked out one of the cleanest brassards that had chosen to keep for myself and put it in a bag and stuck in my van. The next time I went out to the auction and talked to him I surprised him with my gift. Honestly, the man had tears in his eyes and shook my hand so hard I thought he was going to break it. Who would have thought that such a small piece of material would make a grown man cry? He also insisted that he pay me for it and I assured him that he already had.

 

Honestly, that moment meant more to me than any amount of money that I could have ever been paid for for one of the brassards. But don't get me wrong because it doesn't mean I am going to get all sentimental and start handing out the ones I have left for free. But if I ever have the opportunity to do it again I surely would. Because saving a little piece of someones history really made my dumpster dive worth the effort. And please excuse me for being so long winded.

 

 

 

 

 

[skautdog]

Manchu warrior,

 

Great example of what I was trying to express above! Thanks!

 

It's the items and what they represent, not the $$$ value.

 

Ken

[BROBS]

I think on an internet forum the questions asked and answered are often about the item itself and not the history..

I think a lot of the historical research and learning goes on outside of the forum.

Again, a lot stemming from people worried that some distant "family member" (I use that term loosely) will pop in after a google search and try to lay claim to the item(s).

 

For example I posted a KIA USS Indianapolis PH group I got from the woodwork... but I'll be danged if I'm going to post any info about it in type on this forum.

 

Sure there are people out there not interested in this history and mainly the value... but I would say they number much fewer than those truly delved into the history.

 

-Brian

[Manchu Warrior]

Manchu warrior,

 

Great example of what I was trying to express above! Thanks!

 

It's the items and what they represent, not the $$$ value.

 

Ken

 

No problem and I am glad I could help. I actually did not read what you said until after you replied to my post. I also found what you said to be very interesting and I agree. With that said just yesterday I was holding a very well worn pair of double buckle WWII boots. I have no idea who wore them nor do I even remember where I purchased them. But there I sat wondering if the dirt on the bottom was from Normandy or Italy or who knows maybe it was from Fort Benning, GA. It just fascinates me and I really cannot explain that feelings after all it was just a pair of dirty old worn out boots. But I do believe most of us forum members have possibly had that same feeling and therefore I suppose no explanation is really needed.

[David D]

I collect mainly for the historical value of the item. Not for how much I can sell it for. And I think more younger people should collect or at least learn their history and what older generations of there family did and went through.

 

-Dave

[willysmb44]

I get where you guys are coming from, but I can't help but think of my Class As, hanging in my closet.

The last time I wore them, I had to go on one of three death notifications. Those are one of the few things Hollywood seems to get right in war movies. That's one cliche that lives up to the reality.

I encountered the widow (of course in her late teens and pregnant at the time I came a'calling at her door) a couple of weeks later at a local WalMart. She recognized me and came up and thanked me for the kindness I showed on that call and she apologized for her reaction to it.

I'll never forget what she said: "I knew something horrible had happened when I saw you get out of your car, in your Class As"

That image of that very uniform will probably be burned into her brain forever. I seriously considered burning it the day I left active duty, especially after hearing the green As were going to be phased out anyway.

So much pain and grief, all focused on one uniform. Once I'm gone, it'll probably be tossed out and nobody will know.

Maybe that's better that way...

[jguy1986]

So much pain and grief, all focused on one uniform. Once I'm gone, it'll probably be tossed out and nobody will know.

Maybe that's better that way...

 

Lee, quite a heart-wrenching story, thank you for sharing it.

 

Just to explain another side of the issue, in particular I like to collect named dress uniforms, and I choose to see a more positive side of these items. In my view, the WWII Class A's and Jumpers that I like to pick up were the uniforms worn on one of the most important days in a soldier's or sailor's life: the day in 1945 or 1946 when he got to step off the train and finally go home. They were the clothes that these men donned when they saw their families for the first time in years or finally married their sweethearts -- one of my personal favorites is a jumper that came with photos of the sailor on his wedding day, wearing the same uniform, and it was a joyous day for everyone in the photos. From then on, they could put their experiences of the war behind them and try to continue on with their lives, to the best of their respective abilities. Some burned their uniforms, some hung them in the closet and never took them out again, and some wore them regularly to the local VFW hall or local parade, but those items tell a story that I try my best to preserve and not be forgotten or lost to time and rag mills.

 

-- Jon

[emccomas]

I think on an internet forum the questions asked and answered are often about the item itself and not the history..

I think a lot of the historical research and learning goes on outside of the forum.

Again, a lot stemming from people worried that some distant "family member" (I use that term loosely) will pop in after a google search and try to lay claim to the item(s).

 

For example I posted a KIA USS Indianapolis PH group I got from the woodwork... but I'll be danged if I'm going to post any info about it in type on this forum.

 

Sure there are people out there not interested in this history and mainly the value... but I would say they number much fewer than those truly delved into the history.

 

-Brian

 

Brian;

 

I am trying to contact you and cannot get a PM through to you. If you get this message please email me at [email protected]. Thanks.

 

Ed

[jgawne]

IT's been lost for along time. Money and financial value drives far too many collectors. The number of people that collect things without actually having an idea of what they are, and not really caring, never ceases to amaze me. As I say- Millions for a paratrooper widget, not one cent for research!

[Garandomatic]

IT's been lost for along time. Money and financial value drives far too many collectors. The number of people that collect things without actually having an idea of what they are, and not really caring, never ceases to amaze me. As I say- Millions for a paratrooper widget, not one cent for research!

Then you sir, would look favorably upon my occasionally irresponsible use of credit to pay for research for mostly "regular guys that did their job" with little more to show than the usual "I survived" awards!