mortaydc60 Posted March 26, 2014 Share #26 Posted March 26, 2014 Not trying to be a pain but this really does not make sense. The CATF was in existence for 9 months and a unit not of very large size, and in existence roughly the same lenght of time as the AVG , what Iyet there are 1000's more of these insignia than AVG. Plus this Chinese unit has a right shoulder 14th AF patch before there was a 14th AF. Most of what I assume to be prior service 14th's that I have seen were right facing;as a matter of fact the photo showing the general the general is wearing a right facing 14thAF and is in fact ID"d in the photo as 14th AF. You maybe correct, but that would mean that the CATF had these made for them in this manner; a fact I have never heard anyone say or write. For now I choose to believe what I think most believe, in that it is prior service wear unless you can show otherwise. I feel like I was giving a summation to the jury,sorry. Mort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
501stGeronimo Posted March 26, 2014 Share #27 Posted March 26, 2014 Not trying to be a pain but this really does not make sense. The CATF was in existence for 9 months and a unit not of very large size, and in existence roughly the same lenght of time as the AVG , what Iyet there are 1000's more of these insignia than AVG. Plus this Chinese unit has a right shoulder 14th AF patch before there was a 14th AF. Most of what I assume to be prior service 14th's that I have seen were right facing;as a matter of fact the photo showing the general the general is wearing a right facing 14thAF and is in fact ID"d in the photo as 14th AF. You maybe correct, but that would mean that the CATF had these made for them in this manner; a fact I have never heard anyone say or write. For now I choose to believe what I think most believe, in that it is prior service wear unless you can show otherwise. I feel like I was giving a summation to the jury,sorry. MortBelieve what you want, even Bill said what it was and I backed him up on it. If it was made for "prior service", wouldnt most men that got out of the 14th have the same type of patches? No, because it was for the CATF. Not many men were apart of it and thats why you dont see alot of them. All of the former combat units that i have handled (which are a ton) are left facing, Gen. Chennault's is the first i have seen in 42 years of dealing with AAF, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
501stGeronimo Posted March 26, 2014 Share #28 Posted March 26, 2014 And also Mort, if you read it all of the way, it said the patch of the 14th AF AND the AVG. Whoever wrote this book probably didn't know the difference between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted March 26, 2014 Share #29 Posted March 26, 2014 I am willing to learn new info all the time;but the photo of the general shows what they call in the article under the photo as the 14thAF and that if you look at his left chest you will see the wing and the AVG patch below. I believe what you are inferring is that the photo should have a 14th AF on his left sleeve. My thought was that the right facing we see are theater made for return to states. I just have not seen the right facing ID'd as CATF before this time but willing to learn. Mort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted March 26, 2014 Share #30 Posted March 26, 2014 To further confuse the issue the CATF was assigned to the 10th Air Force. Air Force Academy has plaque with left 14th AF saying it was for the CATF and 14thAF. I know that some dealers call the right face CATF to further add to confusion. Mort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
501stGeronimo Posted March 26, 2014 Share #31 Posted March 26, 2014 To further confuse the issue the CATF was assigned to the 10th Air Force. Air Force Academy has plaque with left 14th AF saying it was for the CATF and 14thAF. I know that some dealers call the right face CATF to further add to confusion. MortMort,If you reread the sentence, it says the patch of the 14th AF and the AVG. And please just explain to me what confusion there is, as Im not confused at all. I know the difference between a CATF patch and a 14th AF patch...its the way the tiger is facing. But you can think what you want and me and the other collectors will think what we want. How about this Mort, show me what you think is a CATF patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
501stGeronimo Posted March 26, 2014 Share #32 Posted March 26, 2014 And i noticed i didnt say this already, but that sure is a perty CATF patch Steve! Very nice and hard to find pick up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Scott Posted March 26, 2014 Share #33 Posted March 26, 2014 Guys let not get into a peeing match over whats on a sleeve.I have owned hundreds and hundreds of tunics Ikes etc. and most not all of the 10th- 14th Airforce combos had a standard 14th Airforce on the right sleeve.All we have to do is congratulate the lucky finder of that great piece of insignia.Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Patrol Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share #34 Posted March 26, 2014 I've enjoyed this discussion. I'm not a WW2 patch collector, so much of this is new and that's refreshing (speaking as a patch collector)! I'll throw one more monkey wrench into this discussion which will probably have little impact. This patch is not small.....not a shoulder sleeve insignia, but it appears to be a chest size patch for an A2. Does that matter in this discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
501stGeronimo Posted March 26, 2014 Share #35 Posted March 26, 2014 I've enjoyed this discussion. I'm not a WW2 patch collector, so much of this is new and that's refreshing (speaking as a patch collector)! I'll throw one more monkey wrench into this discussion which will probably have little impact. This patch is not small.....not a shoulder sleeve insignia, but it appears to be a chest size patch for an A2. Does that matter in this discussion? Yes, that matters alot, as not many CATF SSI are not common but the Large Squadron Patch size is def. CATF. As a matter of fact, i have some in a case in my room...Ill dig it out later and post it! Ill find 10-15 theater made left facing 14th AAF to one theater made right facing CATF SSI or squadron patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted March 26, 2014 Share #36 Posted March 26, 2014 I'm done peeing;my prostate won't let me. Well this old dog learned something and I trust that many members of the forum had things made clearer. Thanks 501 and Scotty. It was fun. Mort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Patrol Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share #37 Posted March 26, 2014 One last twist to this patch. It sat on a table, about 8 tables up from Scotty's, at SOS this year. I passed it everyday, three or four times each day.....like a huge purple beacon, it glared at me. Everyday I said to myself, just go buy it. Nope......I waited until the last day, closed up my tables, packed the vehicle and began to drive away, but I stopped, re-parked the vehicle, walked back in and finally asked to look at it.....I'm ashamed to say what I paid for it.....I will certainly be buying that guy one of those gigantic ice cream cones for the next few years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josesharontraders Posted September 13, 2015 Share #38 Posted September 13, 2015 I bought this thinking it was a reproduction. Is there a chance it's an original patch? Perhaps off a scarf.... Thanks for any opinions, Steve Hi, your patch is real 14th AAF. It is quite rare for the tiger to be facing sinister/left side. But take a look, I acquired a fine dui crest pin from Señor Ron Burkey's Flying Tigers Antiques Store of the 14th AAF tiger mascot facing like yours. Good going & I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josesharontraders Posted September 13, 2015 Share #39 Posted September 13, 2015 I bought this thinking it was a reproduction. Is there a chance it's an original patch? Perhaps off a scarf.... Thanks for any opinions, Steve Hi, your patch is real 14th AAF. It is quite rare for the tiger to be facing sinister/left side. But take a look, I acquired a fine dui crest pin from Señor Ron Burkey's Flying Tigers Antiques Store of the 14th AAF tiger mascot facing like yours. Good going & I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Patrol Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share #40 Posted September 13, 2015 Very nice Jose.....perhaps you can show the back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josesharontraders Posted September 20, 2015 Share #41 Posted September 20, 2015 Hola, Happy Sunday! Here you go, Señor, the rendition of the back as requested. josesharon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted September 20, 2015 Share #42 Posted September 20, 2015 Sweet!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josesharontraders Posted October 15, 2015 Share #43 Posted October 15, 2015 Hola Scotty, Where can I find your online store as I gather you hold desks at militaria gatherings? Just in case, you do. I have been privileged to view your fantastic CBI and AVG patches in the smattering of forums. If Darth Vader were around he would say, ¨Impressive...most impressive¨ HAHAHAH. Let me know please. Best Regards, Jose Guys let not get into a peeing match over whats on a sleeve.I have owned hundreds and hundreds of tunics Ikes etc. and most not all of the 10th- 14th Airforce combos had a standard 14th Airforce on the right sleeve.All we have to do is congratulate the lucky finder of that great piece of insignia.Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josesharontraders Posted November 18, 2015 Share #44 Posted November 18, 2015 I bought this thinking it was a reproduction. Is there a chance it's an original patch? Perhaps off a scarf.... Thanks for any opinions, Steve I don't know about the above arguments whether 14th AAF or CATF, I think the sinister look shows it was early U.S. task force to replace AVGers. Hence, all CATF. More importantly, your tiger is not as happy as mine but is a more elaborate artwork. Lookee and lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desertrat Posted May 25, 2017 Share #45 Posted May 25, 2017 I am getting in on the tail end of this thread but allow me to add my CATF/reversed 14th AAF to the thread. It is hand embroidered on blue twill and one of my favorites in my small collection... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Scott Posted May 25, 2017 Share #46 Posted May 25, 2017 Desertrat a great looking example thanks for showing it.Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josesharontraders Posted December 22, 2017 Share #47 Posted December 22, 2017 Here is a real American Volunteer Group aka Flying Tiger Insignia.Scotty Hi Bill, Fantastic AVG patch! Thanks for sharing. Jose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskjl Posted December 22, 2017 Share #48 Posted December 22, 2017 Not to hijack the thread but here is mine, shoulder size. What are these things worth anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josesharontraders Posted November 22, 2019 Share #49 Posted November 22, 2019 I'm done peeing;my prostate won't let me. Well this old dog learned something and I trust that many members of the forum had things made clearer. Thanks 501 and Scotty. It was fun. Mort HI Mortaydc60, Updated History. Better late than never for the sake of updated knowledge: I stand corrected from my greenhorn days in 2016, stating your wonderful CBI tiger patch is 14th Airforce. Like other savvy collectors here and because I just finished an almost 4-year study on AVG Patches and the subsequent CATF, your patch and my DUI pins above are all from the CATF period. Almost all tigers facing dexter-right were used by the CATF, whilst facing sinister-left was a pattern used by the 14th Airforce. Politics That Created An Overlap Period Bet. CATF & 14th Airforce. Even if PatchCollector quoted written history that CATF was dis-established in April 1943, the reality you find amongst former AVG personnel diaries is that the 14th Airforce was actually in full force and effect only by December 1943, not earlier. The order by Pres. Roosevelt over the opposition of Gen. Marshall, Gen. Hap Arnold & Gen. Stlllwell to create a 14th Airforce--a breakaway from the Br. India 10th Airforce--was given in April 1943 as a result of a White House private emissary visit to China by businessman Wendell Wilkie and his interview and amazement of the many enemy kills performed by the small poorly supplied 23rd Fighter Group + 1 Bomber unit of Chennault in Kunming, China. Wendell Wilkie may have convinced the President, but the USAAC/F dragged their feet in activating with full force of men and materiel the 14th Airforce until almost the end of 1943. The Confusion in this Forum. Hence, from mid 1943 up to the end of 1943, there were overlapping CATF men using right tigers patches and incoming men of the 14th also adopting initially the right-facing tigers until 14th Airforce came into its own in actuality in December 1943 through Feb 1946. There were almost 23,000 CATF airmen & personnel rotating into the CBI from July 1942 through December 1943, while there were almost 76,000 rotating 14th Airforce personnel into the CBI from mid 1942 through Feb, 1946 wearing these left or right tigers. These dudes & gals together with China kept down the bulk of the 4-million man Kwantung Army of the Empire of Japan, who would otherwise have gone to defend the Pacific islands from the approaching forces of Gen. Douglas MacArthur, Adm. Nimitz & Halsey etc. Value. But generally since there were fewer CATF, and if the patch is not painted cheaply, but comes embroidered or in bullion design with local material like silk, mixed in with gabardine from British India or twill or wool cloth from U.S. forces mainland supplies, and the dexter-right facing CATF tiger in the patch is ¨very handsome¨ like an Amur tiger, unlike the narrow-faced Bengal tiger, the former is far more valuable than the many--even U.S. mainland-made--14th Airforce sinister-left facing patches. You can imagine Admiral Nimitz' naval forces pilots & crew temporarily landing in China's USAAF/CAAF scatter fields also collecting 14th Airforce CBI patch souvenirs (as well as ivory to sell back in the U.S. per many soldiers' diaries on privateering...hahahah) as the fleet approached the Chinese coastline in the early summer of 1945. Conclusion. So, authentic and nicely made smiling, dexter-right CATF patches are far more valuable. Yours are real and even better than mine. Thanks for showing, bro. jose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josesharontraders Posted November 22, 2019 Share #50 Posted November 22, 2019 By the way for prostrate, take allopurinol, bro and lots of coconut juice---hahahahaha. Same prob like u amongst men of olde. hahahahahahahehehehehe. Nice weekend to you. You are so funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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