Does this WWI Patch Look Like Real Deal?

[RockinRecon]

Does this WWI patch look authentic? I ask because it looks different than the 7 other WWI 81st ID patches I have. Maybe it's just because it's made from wool and I don't have one made of wool, so that makes me wonder about the authenticity of this patch.

 

 

Thanks.

[marks'militaria]

I will be brutally honest as to the *good* of most all WW1 era SSI's now on the market on various dealer www sites, ALL garbage FAKED!!

Think for a minute. these guys post these, all in MINT???******** unsewn condition*****???.LOL! Even they know deep down they have garbage.

 

There is at least one member here that posted fake WW1 era SSi's and he said he makes them and showed pics, and they are exact like others being posted as genuine era.

 

Just how many MINT/ever sewn patches do anyone really belive are around in the open web market.tyhat is era genuine? hell, must have discovered a freaking warehouse full of every known SSI ever produced.

it's like these MERROW edged USMC SSI's, and saying they are genuine govern.issued.

 

Go to Militaria webring for Pakistani catalogs,

 

Oh yeah, your posted patch is no good(modern made)

[trenchbuff]

Geez, might as well just give up collecting.

[RockinRecon]

Geez, might as well just give up collecting.

Why?

[ludwigh1980]

I had a similar patch on an Id'ed 81st Div. WW1 officers Uniform. Was part of a WW1 Brothers Uniform Group. Multi-piece wool felt, cat had a similar poorly defined mouth. As far as WW1 patch hoards goes, I personally have seen several ww1 footlocker uniform groups that had extensive ww1 patch collections that the original vet collected just after WW1. Right now there is an extensive WW1 Nurse trunk group that had several dozen ww1 patches (un-used) that the woman collected that is being broken up on ebay. Group was one of the best WW1 nurse uniform groups that I have seen come out of the woodwork in years and the ebay seller is breaking it up completely. Belonged to one Elsa Goldman. I wish I would have bid him up more when it came up for auction for the first time a year ago intact. Like everything else, know what you are bidding on and buy from who you trust. Patches in groupings are probably your best bet as several uniform groups that I have purchased out of the woodwork would have multiple patches. Since most WW1 patches were handmade and the materials are still available (WW1 -1920 military pillow covers of wool felt are a favorite source for vintage material for WW1 patch fakers) there is risk. Just like anything else of value.

[trenchbuff]

Why?

 

In keeping with the forums policy on giving honest assessments and trying real hard to avoid sarcasm, I too believe your patch to be original and have seen this style both on original uniforms and loose. They have all come directly from veterans or their families. I'm not quite sure what to make of Mark's Militaria's totally negative assessment of WW1 patches. Although there are lots of fakes being peddled there are just as many honest dealers and collectors who have spent years researching and collecting patches. There is never any guarantee that you won't get stuck with a fake, but you can minimize the risk through research and trying to track back the source of a patch as well as find honest dealers. The world of patch collecting is not as rotten as indicated. If it were, then it would really be time to find a new hobby and I for one don't intend to do that. Just my opinion, but felt you deserve something a little more positive.

 

[Thor996]

I will be brutally honest as to the *good* of most all WW1 era SSI's now on the market on various dealer www sites, ALL garbage FAKED!!

Think for a minute. these guys post these, all in MINT???******** unsewn condition*****???.LOL! Even they know deep down they have garbage.

 

pretty serious allegations........JMHO..

[Thor996]

 

In keeping with the forums policy on giving honest assessments and trying real hard to avoid sarcasm, I too believe your patch to be original and have seen this style both on original uniforms and loose. They have all come directly from veterans or their families. I'm not quite sure what to make of Mark's Militaria's totally negative assessment of WW1 patches. Although there are lots of fakes being peddled there are just as many honest dealers and collectors who have spent years researching and collecting patches. There is never any guarantee that you won't get stuck with a fake, but you can minimize the risk through research and trying to track back the source of a patch as well as find honest dealers. The world of patch collecting is not as rotten as indicated. If it were, then it would really be time to find a new hobby and I for one don't intend to do that. Just my opinion, but felt you deserve something a little more positive.

 

 

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I think Mark's Militaria is spewing a bit of vitriol re this patch and dealers in general and making some pretty broad generalizations without backing it up. i'd be wary of this assesment based on this guys own desription of himself.

 

"Collecting *beater* type militaria relics/Dallas Cowboys/New York Yankees/film noir/instigator(trouble maker) on various www sites/"

 

[MAW]

Honestly....there are a lot of fakes out there, and many of them are quite good......others border on the ridiculous.

 

There's nothing obviously wrong with it....could be real....but ????.

[RockinRecon]

I want to thank everyone for helping me so much. The patch in the pic is not mine, you can go check it out on ebay. I'm not sure yet if i'm going to try and get it or not. I already have a few WWI 81st ID patches that i;m sure are real, I bought one from Griffin Militaria and bought a couple of others from a member of this forum. I've got a thread posted that has pics of a few of the patches in my collection.

[KurtA]

Here's some 100% original ones: (Andrew posted photos of the hoard they came out of when he acquired them a year or so ago.)

 

http://www.wartimecollectables.com/quality-militaria-for-sale.html

 

As far as the example you originally posted, it could be original. But, something about it just bothers me. Just seems too perfectly made. When it comes to WW1 patches, there are manufacturing styles I am familiar with and feel comfortable buying anywhere (e.g. including patch dealers). If the construction is not something I feel good about, it must come from a "pure" source (i.e., a vet's estate or a flea market junk box - not a patch dealer). Plenty of no-doubt-about-it ORIGINAL WW1 81st Div patches out there. There's no reason to roll the dice on this one.

[Patchcollector]

 

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I think Mark's Militaria is spewing a bit of vitriol re this patch and dealers in general and making some pretty broad generalizations without backing it up. i'd be wary of this assesment based on this guys own desription of himself.

 

"Collecting *beater* type militaria relics/Dallas Cowboys/New York Yankees/film noir/instigator(trouble maker) on various www sites/"

 

 

 

I've noticed several posts in different categories basically ranting that "everything out there now is a fake".Forum members are being accused as well:

"Several dealers who are on this forum has crap reloics that are being offered as genuine CW"

 

 

Makes me wonder what the motive is for these posts..

[RockinRecon]

Here's some 100% original ones: (Andrew posted photos of the hoard they came out of when he acquired them a year or so ago.)

 

http://www.wartimecollectables.com/quality-militaria-for-sale.html

 

As far as the example you originally posted, it could be original. But, something about it just bothers me. Just seems too perfectly made. When it comes to WW1 patches, there are manufacturing styles I am familiar with and feel comfortable buying anywhere (e.g. including patch dealers). If the construction is not something I feel good about, it must come from a "pure" source (i.e., a vet's estate or a flea market junk box - not a patch dealer). Plenty of no-doubt-about-it ORIGINAL WW1 81st Div patches out there. There's no reason to roll the dice on this one.

Thanks very much for the info and link, I believe I agree with you.

[Patchcollector]

As for the patch that originally started this thread(post # 1),I'm not a WW1 patch expert,but I believe that this piece is original to the period because I recently picked up a small group that has a piece made in this manner.(a different unit though)

[mortaydc60]

I just returned from the SOS and there were original WW1 patches for sale;some mint ,some used, and some fake. More real than fake and if fake easy to tell in most cases. You can depend on anything WW1 from Dan Griffin who happens to be a real expert in this field. I completely disagree with the negativity on WW1;there is always stuff coming out; for example the factory mint Liberty Loans that were recently released as well as breakup of patch blankets with just great patches such as forsale on ebay by DDucksdaughter. Stick with reputable dealers ,join ASMIC, and get some books. Mort

[Patchcollector]

Wise advice Mort.I wanted to add that I agree about new stuff surfacing.The small group I mentioned here in an earlier post is a good example.It was recently found in an attic.
My opinion is that there are still a lot of nice items to come,and thanks to the internet we have the world at our fingertips,so to speak.

[Bill Scott]

Just my opinion the insignia that started this thread appears to be real.I have handled insignia from all wars for 35 years and to say that a stone mint example is suspect is foolish.If you pull up my sales for the last 3 months you will see a group of bullion WW1 unit insignias that are stone mint.The insignias turned up at an auction in a veterans footlocker years ago.Almost every one of them had period French newsprint glued to the backs and all were genuine period pieces.I like many other dealers across the country strive to handle real period collectibles that we guarantee without question.What others have posted is good advice deal with people who are honest start a great reference library and join ASMIC where you will learn from people that have a great passion for knowledge.The way we learn is to make mistakes this forum helps cut down on those mistakes by using the combined knowledge of all of us to learn more about the hobby.Scotty

[Wake1941]

Think about this how many ww1 uniforms actually had unit insignia patches applied to them you see piles of uniforms that were wore with no insignia, think about all the patches that were issued but never worn. There are fakes out there but there is a difference between fake and unworn

[Will]

Certainly there are fakes in the area of World War I patches, as there are fakes in almost any field of collecting, whether it is an American Air Service patch or a Van Gogh painting.

 

Personally, when I hear someone go on a diatribe along the lines of "Most of the examples of (fill in the blank) are fake!", or "They never made them like that", or "They never wore it like that", I immediately think that the individual speaking has not really been collecting very long.

 

The longer that you collect, the more you know about things like the number of unworn World War I patches, or variations in construction, or the efforts of men in the service to individualize themselves with a unique insignia of method of wearing a uniform piece.

 

Are there fakes?

Of course there are.

Does the fact that there are a number of certain items around prove that they are fake?

Of course it doesn't.

[Rakkasan187]

I will be brutally honest as to the *good* of most all WW1 era SSI's now on the market on various dealer www sites, ALL garbage FAKED!!

Think for a minute. these guys post these, all in MINT???******** unsewn condition*****???.LOL! Even they know deep down they have garbage.

 

There is at least one member here that posted fake WW1 era SSi's and he said he makes them and showed pics, and they are exact like others being posted as genuine era.

 

Just how many MINT/ever sewn patches do anyone really belive are around in the open web market.tyhat is era genuine? hell, must have discovered a freaking warehouse full of every known SSI ever produced.

it's like these MERROW edged USMC SSI's, and saying they are genuine govern.issued.

 

Go to Militaria webring for Pakistani catalogs,

 

Oh yeah, your posted patch is no good(modern made)

Would really like to know how you determined this is fake, (modern made) tell me facts please, from what I am reading these are your ASSUMPTIONS...

[Patriot]

There has been a lot of discussion on this forum (and others) about the huge liberty loan patch collection that has surfaced, and is gradually being sold to dealers and on eBay. Many of these liberty patches are in mint condition, and number in the thousands. Similarly, I have seen "new old stock" from the Civil War (belts and belt plates, hat cords, etc), and World War I items in pristine, "as issued" condition.

 

The point is, such items do exist. To call something a fake based on condition alone will undoubtedly mislead many new collectors as to what is real, and what is not.

[Patchcollector]

There has been a lot of discussion on this forum (and others) about the huge liberty loan patch collection that has surfaced, and is gradually being sold to dealers and on eBay. Many of these liberty patches are in mint condition, and number in the thousands. Similarly, I have seen "new old stock" from the Civil War (belts and belt plates, hat cords, etc), and World War I items in pristine, "as issued" condition.

 

The point is, such items do exist. To call something a fake based on condition alone will undoubtedly mislead many new collectors as to what is real, and what is not.

 

 

Well put

[shrapneldude]

Just how many MINT/ever sewn patches do anyone really belive are around in the open web market.tyhat is era genuine? hell, must have discovered a freaking warehouse full of every known SSI ever produced.

it's like these MERROW edged USMC SSI's, and saying they are genuine govern.issued.

 

 

I'll try going at this from a slightly different angle. To answer your question, the average Army infantry division during World War I had over 20,000 troops and nearly 1,000 officers, thanks to Pershing's redesign and drafting and so forth. If every soldier assigned to the division purchased or ordered just 1 patch for his uniform, that's already a lot.

 

In any business, your best bet is to have a bunch of product on-hand to sell rather than make to order, especially if it's something that takes a while to produce like an intricate designed multi-piece patch. So... a conservative estimate of what could be out there for the Infantry Divisions at least could reasonably be within the 80,000 range, and likely much higher than that. 100 years later, the ones more likely to have survived all this time ARE the ones that never made their way onto uniforms that got moth-eaten and thrown away.

 

As to the USMC SSI's you mention, the Army wore those too. Army troops attached to Fleet Marine Force commands during wartime have been authorized wear of Marine Division SSI as their "combat patch" at various periods throughout US History, and even today, genuine, government issue 1st and 2nd Marine Division patches can be gotten through the Army supply system and worn by soldiers who served attached to Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan, so yes, some (not all) merrowed-edge USMC patches are indeed government issue.

 

Great discussion, great responses from some highly respected people, and for whatever it's worth, the patch looks fine to me too!

 

[RockinRecon]

Hope this one is real!

[Thor996]

here's mine and I'm sure its real- compare: