Correct precedence for navy ribbon rack in 1960?

[MattS]

Great photo! The 2 ribbons that gave me the most trouble on that rack were the China Service and Naval Reserve Medal which have both seen changes in their position since WW2.

[hoppylu2]

Howdy All,

I'm a docent at the Commemorative Air Force Museum in Camarillo, Calif.

These days, we mostly have Navy craft, including a PBJ in original shades of blue.

For one of the mannequins in a USN khaki service coat, I want to do something that suggests a WWI retread who's a Lt.Cmdr around 1944 to early 1945.

I don't see this "officer" doing China duty. Nothing in the way of fruit salad that looks like someone in hollywood had a thing for lots of colors, just modest and realistic.

And, I'm confused by precedence of ribbons, which seems to be the mirror opposite of the Army's.

Thanks and All.

john

[MattS]

Wow, I had totally forgot about this research project 8 years ago, not even sure why I was doing it. 
 

For a WW1 retread, nothing too fancy, maybe just a WW1 victory medal after the standard WW2 campaign ribbons (American, Pacific)? 

 

Here's Randal Near, the officer that I was researching.

[hoppylu2]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking the same thing. I always base retreads on Maj. Stovall in the original 12 O'Clock High. I'm a retired Deputy DA so I like the fact that Stovall was a lawyer who got yanked back into harness.

I was thinking the LC got recalled, or re-upped, in 1940 or '41, and was put somewhere as an adjutant, to use the Army term, which is the stuff I know. As an old salt, I was also thinking he'd stay with the embroidered, left-facing crow on his cap.

A guy like that would be old enough to know better, after the change in 5/41, but too old to care. I mean, what're they gonna do, send him to sea?

I see him as the kind of guy who'd dye a stained white combo-cap cover khaki and not care about the fact it didn't match.

I like the simplicity of WWI Victory, American Defense, American Theater, and Pacific Theater. That would be a row of three on the bottom, and the single at middle top.

From his left side, what order would the ribbons go, oldest to newest, or vice versa, with the WWI Victory being the top solo ribbon?

It seems counter-intuitive to put the WWI Victory as the single, which would be the opposite of the Army's 1941 Regs, which, tho not applicable here, would have put the Purple Heart over the DFC, but that made sense, given the combat/non-combat pre-war history of the two medals.

I've tried to dope it out, looking at salts like Nimitz and King, but they could do what they wanted, even if it was wrong. In a lot of khaki shirt pix, King is wearing his wings on the pocket flap instead of above the pocket. And them old cats were wearing their mini wings on their p- cutters, but then again, almost every aviator wore wings on their p- cutter if they were so qualified, even if they weren't actively flying anymore.

Anyway, I'll stop rambling now and getting overly analytical, but that's what I did for a living for 30 years.

I'm very keen on getting this right, so thanks for indulging my banging on.

John

[MattS]

I’m a retired LEO, I know the feeling. 
I’d guess (someone will correct me) the WW1 Victory on top, then American Defense followed by the American and Pacific Campaigns. 
Here’s a Navy Expeditionary Medal and WW1 Victory worn in the top row, with a star on the American Defense and campaign ribbons following. https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:fx71bq317

[hoppylu2]

Hi Matt,

It's interesting that some of these guys had a pocket square, like Rhea. King did it, too.

I've often wondered if men at Pearl, on shore duty that day, put a star on their Am. Defense ribbon once it was issued. I can't find anything that makes that official.

It seems all these men sort of did what made sense to them. The regs are no help, except as to the descending order from the highest awards.

Your suggestion is how I read other posts about the Navy doing the opposite from the Army, and your suggested precedence follows that.

Thanks very much. It'll take me a while to undo a few three-ribbon bars. Have to get new silk, clean and straighten out the frames, etc. But it'll fine with me. I still have one eye and a pair of needle nose pliers. And lots of time.

Mahalo plenty (as my Dad used to say when he lived in Ka'anapali)

[US82Bravo]

2 hours ago, hoppylu2 said:

 

I've often wondered if men at Pearl, on shore duty that day, put a star on their Am. Defense ribbon once it was issued. I can't find anything that makes that official.

 

 

General Order No. 172

Navy Department,

Washington, D. C., April 20, 1942.

Regulations for Award of the American Defense Service Medal

1. The following Executive order pertaining to the award of the American Defense Service Medal is published below for information and guidance of the naval service:

EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 8808

"By virtue of the authority vested in me as President of the United States, and as Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, it is hereby ordered that the American Defense Service Medal, including suitable appurtenances, be established and that the said medal may be awarded, under such regulations as the Secretary of War, the Secretary of the Navy, and the Secretary of the Treasury may prescribe, to personnel of the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard of the United States serving during the limited emergency proclaimed by me on September 8, 1939, to exist, or during the unlimited emergency proclaimed by me on May 27, 1941.

Franklin D. Roosevelt."

The White House,

June 28, 1941.

2. The American Defense Service Medal will be awarded to all persons in the naval service who served on active duty between September 8, 1939, and December 7, 1941, both dates inclusive.

3. A service clasp, "Fleet" or "Base," is authorized to be worn on the ribbon of the medal by each person who performed duties as set forth below. No person is entitled to more than one such class.

(a) Fleet. - For service on the high seas while regularly attached to any vessel or aircraft squadron of the Atlantic, Pacific or Asiatic Fleets; to include vessels of the Naval Transportation Service and vessels operating directly under the Chief of Naval Operations.

(b) Base. - For service on shore at bases and naval stations outside the continental limits of the United States.

4. A bronze star, three-sixteenths of an inch in diameter, will be worn on the service ribbon in lieu of any clasp authorized.

 

Frank Knox,

Secretary of the Navy.

 

(note - emphasis added)

 

Larry

[hoppylu2]

Larry,

Thanks much for breaking that out.

If I'd ever seen that in an internet search, my eyes glazed over with lack of comprehension.

Isolated that way, now that I'm focused on just that, makes perfect sense.

Mahalo.